When I recently heard that the classic FPDW game (full pay Deuces Wild) had been pulled from all the Station properties in Las Vegas, a feeling of sadness came over me – and a rush of memories filled my thoughts. Yes, Brad and I have moved away from Vegas and this game disappearance doesn’t impact us personally. In fact, we hadn’t played this game for many years even though we were living in Las Vegas, near to a casino property that offered it. But because that 100.7% pay table was only offered on low denominations, mainly quarters, we had been finding other positive plays at dollars and above. However, we had always been very happy to find these on a good deuce game, albeit one with a lower-EV pay schedule but connected to a good promotion or players club benefit to put it in positive territory.
FPDW was our exclusive game choice for many years. In fact, it was the game that lured us away from the blackjack tables where we had started our frugal gambling casino adventure. I’ve often told the story about how, on December 31, 1991, Brad and I walked from the Westward Ho to the downtown Gamblers Book Club to get Lenny Frome’s book that contained the FPDW strategy. Then we started playing those old coin-dropper quarters at the Ho, Brad hitting the buttons as I kept checking the strategy chart to be sure we were being accurate. I finally got tired and left for the room, leaving the strategy book with Brad and admonishing him to check if he had a puzzling hand. Of course, this had a storybook ending: Brad hit a royal (our very first) just before midnight, and came back to the room and dumped the whole $1000 in cash on the bed!
In 1995, we got brave enough to leave the quarter machines to go up to playing dollars and that meant learning and choosing other games. But we continued to find some FPDW in 50-cents and occasionally in dollars up through the summer of 1997. After that I never played it, but Brad would sometimes kill time at the Palms, waiting while I got my nails done in the salon, playing the quarter progressive FPDWs.
I see vpFREE2 has FPDW listed only in one casino – Sam’s Town in Vegas. Whether there are others in “secret” locations that players don’t want to reveal – in Las Vegas or any other place in the world – I don’t know. But I do know that losing this game will have negatively affected many skilled advantage players who wanted/needed a lower-level denomination and were willing to spent many hours grinding out a small but steady profit.
Actually, with all the VP pay-schedule downgrades for many years, I am surprised that this game lasted as long as it did. But now it seems like the sad End of an Era!
I played the last night they had them at Fiesta Henderson 1-19-20. Happy to hit 4 deuces for $250. Next day, I was in utter shock they were all turned off. Went to Sunset Station, same thing. Couldn’t figure it out. Figured it might have something to do with a point multiplier day. Did really well on these machines. Really sad. Actually so sad that I will not be going to Vegas anymore at all on vacation, likely Reno only, for the good VP. RIP to Vegas and FPDW. Got royally ripped off last vacation with the resort fees. Never again. Vegas will slowly become death valley on the track it’s currently on.
The deuces were posted on vpfree2. He posts changes on paytables on most casinos. very helpful
I was a little surprised and sad that not a single person in the discussion mentioned that full-pay Joker Wild had also been removed from all Stations casinos. As soon as I read Jean’s column and read about all FPDW being removed, I had a hunch that they wouldn’t leave FPJW in place. So I went to vpFREE2 and checked out every casino, confirming that FPJW had indeed been removed from all Stations casinos.
I’m curious as to how Jean found out about this “machine tragedy”, given that she’s now outside of the Las Vegas gambling world. Jean, did you read about this news someplace, or did someone contact you to tell you?
I have a couple of responses to others’ comments.
First, to be exact, that figure of $8/hour profit is not actually true. Assuming that you play long enough over a long period of time to achieve normal results, and play perfect strategy, there’s still virtually no way you could achieve that figure. To hit it, you would have to put $1,052/$1,053 through the machine per hour, and I find that almost impossible. I have played on lightning-fast machines, and the most I could ever get through the machine in an hour was $1,000 (800 hands), which equates to a profit of $7.60/hour. But not all machines are that fast. Many folks have been playing on machines that are slower. Also, not all players can or want to play as fast as they can, but rather, they want to enjoy their playing session. Finally, I firmly believe that most players do NOT know perfect (or even optimal) strategy. And even knowledgeable players often make mistakes, such as keeping 22FF (2 deuces and 2 flush cards) and going for the flush that will only pay 2 for 1. So, just for us folks (inside and outside of our groups) who are knowledgeable, the true profit per hour is likely between $6 and $7. But for all players, I think the actual player edge/gain is more like $4/hour. Ignorant players will make extremely bad decisions, such as always holding a single face card, something correct in Jacks but dead-wrong in Deuces. So, since I believe the real potential loss per hour for the casinos is only half of what’s been stated in this discussion, it makes Stations’ decision look even more pathetic. This is just one more example of how executives are often just plain stupid and foolish. Their decision will prevent an unknown number of players from patronizing their casinos. That includes me; I just began a relationship with Boulder Station in 2019; now I have no reason to play there. Alas.
As to reminiscing about long-ago Deuces plays: A Deuces Wild Progressive at Palms was mentioned, but nobody has mentioned that the Frontier also had a DW Progressive. It was against the south wall right inside its main entrance area. A progressive DW game will have an EV higher than the base 100.76. But getting back to basic FPDW, this is the game on which I got my first max-coin royals (even though I was playing with someone else’s money and thus couldn’t derive the financial benefit to go with the psychological zing). I played at Main Street Station and got my first one, then during the same trip, I played at the Plaza and got my 2nd one there. My benefactor got a $1,600 profit from my play on that trip, and I was happy for that.
Right now, the best game we can find at a Vegas casino that has low variance and earns you any amount of perks with a casino is NSUD, which has an EV of 99.73 and a variance of just 25.78.
I was at Palace the night they took them out. 1-15-20 . Was going to hit them late at night just before bed. 2 a,.m maybe 3. Walk to the machines and all are off, in the process of being changed. I just knew it was bad news and when I got up and looked the next morning, all FPDW, gone. Damn.
Didn’t know they were gone from all Stations, that truly saddens me.
Martin’s reply reminds me of the days when you would buy a tray (we used to call then racks) of dollars and stuff them into the various dollar slot “carousels”. Remember when they used to have a lady (usually a lady) standing over you rooting you on? My mom and I would play the dollars at Holiday Casino (it was the 80s) and many times you could start with $20 and make $100. I haven’t seen a tray (rack) of dollars in years. So fun.
Thanks as always Jean,
Two quick comments.
Kevin, 8 dollars is nothing to a generation that wants an instant payout now.
How many people would actually care about the $8? I am not sure what statistics are available to show the casino would have the number of patrons that care about $8.
The casinos that give you some “old Friendly” feeling have looked at those #’s and really don’t care….
Martin, some casinos that have a limited selection of machines, really don’t care if you are a knowledgeable VP player or not. Sometimes one person will get to their “lucky” machine and stay for 4-6 hours. Some people will play a machine no matter what the EV is.
My last trip in December I noticed the 50cent 17/10 loose deuces machines at the El Cortez were gone too. I guess I wasn’t the only one who knew about these, I found them a few years back and knew they would eventually be pulled. One of my favorite casinos to go to was the Palms, mainly for the FPDW, now I’m not sure I have a reason to visit there. I guess all of us trying to make a profit at video poker need to continue to adapt, the casinos are making it more and more difficult for sure.
Such a stupid, shortsighted move by Stations. IF someone played perfectly, they would be able to extract….about $8 an hour from a FPDW .25 machine. And most Stations properties had less than a dozen such machines. The effect on their bottom line was tiny at most.
These machines were net profitable for Stations. A player might stop at the tables–or wifey might have a slot fetish–or let’s go to the steakhouse; there were plenty of reasons for Stations to give up that humongous $8 an hour in order to get people in the door. Just like cheap buffets, fullpay video poker is a loss leader. Or should I say…”was.”
I can only attribute the death of good video poker to a short-term results-focused corporate mentality that doesn’t just want massive profits–it wants them in every department and aspect of operations. That’s because the people running casinos today are bright-eyed and bushy-tailed MBAs who don’t have and never had a clue about what makes a casino successful. Those who understood that giving the player value pays off in the long run are long gone.
One more story: My aging dad (like you and Brad) has slowed down greatly, in fact I don’t recall the last “Vegas” trip I took with him– maybe over 5 yrs ago. (He lives in Los Angeles, and is 2 hrs closer than I), but really can’t stand the drive and won’t ‘fly’ from local airport (Ontario, CA) just to play FPDW. Well, I shared with him your article, and he said, well- it was a good run!
History : I got him off the coin spinner slots and he fell in love with FPDW (sgl-line .25c)! He’s been quite lucky too- having hit multiple Royals at Sam’s Town (He was glad to hear they’re still there, but due to the new B-Connected system, he feels he can’t gain much value anymore there). He’s also done well at Gold Coast and has hit a few at Main Street Station and the Fiestas – mainly Rancho but also in Henderson. He used to get monthly mailers from many of these casinos with free rooms, etc. Further out – he used to call the River Palms in Laughlin his next best FPDW home – remember the video poker wharf area – a whole casino section dedicated to VP players! And finally, he even hit a progressive at the Silver Legacy (when they had FPDW and Prog RF there). I doubt if they do now that it’s another large corporate owned group…..but the memories were great and FPDW was a great game for my dad to learn. His brother (My uncle) lived near Sunset Station- and he’s had a royal there as well. He even played a few times at the Palms, but never really liked playing there vs. Gold Coast (more machines at the time or it could have been the music/atmosphere of the ‘hip’ Palms vs. GC). I did teach him NSUD, but now his aging brain sez, it’s just too complicated to remember the differences and learning a new game….Well, he’s happy now, and doesn’t really need the recreational play anymore; he’s quite happy just enjoying his life in suburbia Los Angeles (plenty to do and see in that city!). Thanks for reading….maybe others can write their memories of favorite casinos that had this positive e.v. game called FPDW……..
**Who remembers Odyessey Quick Draw 4-line FPDW? I think this also was only around for a few short yrs at Sam’s Town…..and select places, ….funny how ST is the last place to keep them. I don’t recall Bally GameMaker machines ever having a “FPDW” game in it, but I did like the graphics of those GameMakers (for Pick’em);
I also did search vpFree, surprised to see even Skyline and other local joints have finally downgraded or removed the games completely, guess it was only a matter of time… e.v. too costly to bottom line for the owners, I guess. *You’d think they’d be ok to keep it in sgl-line nickel denom….as a lure to bring peeps in ..but that’s just an outsider looking in.
I agree and am sad about its demise. I was in Vegas about 5 weeks ago and glad I took an Uber from downtown to play my beloved FPDW at Texas Station, along with some other full pay opportunities there. I have a feeling that was my FPDW swan song.
Ah the bank of 25 cent progressive FPDW at the front entrance Palms.
My first time playing video poker was the progressive FPDW was just inside the front door at the Palms. Read your book, and couldn’t wait to try my luck. Got a seat, told the lady next to me “this be the spot”. She just laugh with a smile. After about twenty minute I got a dirty royal and let out yell, everyone gave me a jealousy sigh until they realize it was just a dirty royal, I was embarrassed, but it was my dirty royal.
The best entertainment at this bank of machines was the fights breaking out from people trying to get seats during rush hour rush and people trying to get free drinks without tipping.
RIP for FPDW wonder which game will be next to go.
Please continue writing Jean, I always look forward to your writings/musings regardless of the subject. Enjoy your new, closer to family, location. I lot of our in the 80ties friends like us are moving to be closer to their children. We are fortunate in that our daughter and husband just purchased a houselot in our town and plan to build their retirement home here in about a year so we are fortunate in that respect.
Best to you and Brad.
George
Wonderful memories, different times / vp paytables, etc…wow!
This story also brought up one of my earliest memories, Jean.
I was fairly new to learning vp as I found it locally in local San Diego indian casinos, albeit some were ‘class 2′ machines, and I never really knew if they had fair chips in them, and only for 9/6 JB as best game (but I did hit my share of royals, so did ok). I was mainly a nickel player in early 90s. I too had just purchased Lenny Frome’s book, as others weren’ t on the market yet….pre-Bob Dancer, and I think Dan Paymar’s book was my next purchase.
Anyhow – I was in LV downtown early 1990s, and was showing a new friend how to play the game at Binion’s Horseshoe. They had both the FPDW (some with Reversible $25000 royal bonuses, remember those)? I wasn’t sure of FPDW strategy yet, but loved the Aces/Faces bonus poker version of Jacks or better with $25k reversible royals…..long story short, within 6 hands, I drew 3 to K-J hearts with my friend present and it FILLED the A-T-Q for a $1000 payout royal! Now I did advise my friend that it wasn’t THAT easy to win, but certainly had fun with plenty of bonus quads when they hit.
Later on, when I did start tinkering with playing FPDW, my first set of 2222s (Ducks) was hit at Binions – and it was a scary coin-dropper payout! They LOVED those machines having winners and clanging quarters (all 1000 of them) hit those steel coin drop trays…. I was so nervous, as coin cups seemed not large enough to hold them all, but a kind security guard brought me a ‘Larger’ dollar slot bucket (remember those, before $1 coin plastic trays like they use in poker room for chips)? LOL…anyhow, we survived that era, still miss it (the good VP games), maybe I don’t miss all the messy coins though………and lugging them to a change booth to be sorted and counted *or miscounted. That’s for another story.
Thanks for the memories….
Martin