In the comments on gamblingwithanedge.com relating to a recent blog post of mine, a man named Tim wrote:
Perhaps this has been discussed multiple times, but why don’t the Strip casinos offer full pay video poker? For example, I would sit and play 10 play 9/6 Jacks or better quarters for hours (like I do at South Point). If there is only 6/5 bonus, I may sit at a bar and just play $20.
I’d rather lose a few hundred dollars in a couple hours than $20 in 10 minutes.
Help me understand.
Okay, Tim. Every casino has its own core audience and its own demographics. Plus, land on the center Strip is MUCH more expensive than the land where the South Point is situated.
Strip casinos are geared towards a higher-end customer than those to which the Vegas local casinos cater. Although the South Point has decent entertainment options, you’ll not see the really expensive acts there while in their prime. These acts are very expensive. The show tickets themselves do not come close to paying for the performers. The casinos must attract high rollers to pay the cost.
And the same with restaurants. While Michaels at the South Point is first rate, Strip casinos often offer five or ten restaurants of that approximate quality. And the food charges at the restaurant do not cover the actual price of those meals. The casino needs to chip in.
Few Strip casinos believe they can profitably offer 9/6 Jacks or Better at any denomination. Caesars’ properties (recently purchased by Eldorado) that have the game penalize players for playing them. Instead of $10 coin-in per Reward Credit on other video poker games, these properties charge $25 coin-in per Reward Credit. And the lowest denomination for these machines is $5.
Cromwell’s might still have one bank of machines with quarter and dollar pay schedules including this (and better) games, but they charge $50 coin-in per Reward Credit.
I have heard one report that MGM Mirage properties no longer offer slot coin points for any video poker games, at least in one property back east. While I don’t play at those properties (by their choice), I would like it if others reported as to whether this is true or not around the country.
For the quarter and dollar gaming-value-seeking customers, the Strip doesn’t want your business! If you want the nicer ambience of the Strip casinos, you’re going to have to pay the tab — either through denomination or pay schedule, or both.
Even Vegas local casinos have relatively few high paying games. You mention the South Point, which advertises more than 10,000 games returning more than 99%, but you won’t find anywhere close to that number anywhere else. The BConnected system (sometimes called Boyd), along with Station Casinos, have within the past few years become much tighter with their video poker. That’s a sign of the times.
You can bemoan all you want about the lack of good paying, low denomination video poker on the Strip, but that won’t bring the games back. They just don’t want to cater to that crowd.
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I have a bit of a hard time believing that Tim wouldn’t know that renting/owning land on the Strip is much more expensive than the land where South Point is. I would think that everybody can figure that. And I would think that everybody can figure out that Strip casinos are for people who have money to blow and who want to blow it (as a statement of how much money they have) while the unglamorous “locals” casinos are the opposite, being for folks who want to “do Vegas” with as little expense as possible. I think that Tim misstated his sentiment when he wrote “I’d rather lose a few hundred dollars in a couple hours than $20 in 10 minutes.” because those 2 prospects are almost equivalent (losing $20 in 10 minutes equals losing $240 in 2 hours). I think the sentiment he was trying to communicate is that if he played a bad VP machine for a couple hours, he would lose a lot more than he would lose if he played a good VP machine for a couple hours. For him and all people like him, I say: Abandon your fixation on the Strip! The idea of not losing too much money is central to enjoying a Las Vegas trip, so it’s better to focus on either downtown or locals’ casinos, where the VP pays better and both the lodging and the food are cheaper. I prefer downtown for this reason and because of the nostalgia and how you can easily and comfortably walk from one casino to the next to the next, even in the heat of summer.
I was under the impression that while in the old days gambling wins offset costs in other departments, this was no longer the case. Restaurants are now expected to cover their costs and make a profit. Shows are also expected to cover their own costs. Or have things changed again?
As of my trip in March, The Cromwell no longer has that one bank of three-on-a-side VP that was playable in small denominations. I wanted to make sure for myself and walked the entire floor to see if they hadn’t moved them…not the case. Too bad.
My explanation is this: Through all the years I noticed a permanent change and growth on the Las Vegas Boulevard. With the beginning of the new millennium 2 major corporations became so big and took over smaller casinos. Shareholder value is probably one key point that’s driving up the rates in all departments. As a MGM or Caesars stakeholder you want to see profit, no matter what. These casinos have huge debt loads to carry along and need to pay interest. Years back when the money came from nobody-knows-where and skimming the casino revenues was part of the game, the whole system worked a bit differently, but it worked. Today, with all the compliance and regulations overviewing each and every transaction, there are not many loop holes left.
However, it’s a given that Nevada’s tax level is super low in a world wide comparison. Still, prices have been jacked up like nowhere else in a pace that nobody would have dreamed of. Inflation is nothing compared to what we see that’s happening on Las Vegas Boulevard.
What once was a great gambling place has turned into a wild and crazy Disneyland for adults that fly to Vegas for the weekend to goof around and have fun. That’s how it seems to me. Gambling has become less interesting to these party people but partying, drinking, dining has become the No 1 aspect. That’s not me and I still like to visit Las Vegas for the reason it was built for and how it used to be until some years ago.
If you do your homework and study the conditions , then you can still find casinos where gambling is the NO 1 THING and where you get value for your play. It’s not like it used to be, but at some places it’s still better than in most other countries all over the world where you can find gambling facilities. Actually almost all casinos on the Strip do not fit into this cathegory if you are interested to find good gambling and good value for your play. Even if there are places that have some good games, then the comp value has become microscopic. Some casinos on the Strip are so huge that it takes 20-25 minutes from your room to the pool and if you like to have breakfast in the coffee shop then you find out that there is no more coffee shop. But, here’s the good news : There are places in Las Vegas where the casinos are not so big and where you can find good gamble. There are some casinos that appreciate your business because they know that their location is not the best and many tourists don’t even know about. On the Strip, as a tourist, you are nothing but a number and a paying guest, a walking-wallet, so-to-say. I have said good-bye to the Strip many years ago. Maybe it’s a good idea to go and play poker on the Strip, and take a few photos, but that’s about it. All the noise and bling bling is something that I can gladly say “no thanks”. I love places such as the Tuscany or the Santa Fe, or the El Cortez, and not to forget, the Gold Coast .These places are giving me everything I am looking for. The Southpoint has great videopoker, yes, but it’s too huge and too noisy on the weekends. I play there from time to time, but I can’t handle the noise on a Saturday night.
From Switzerland
Boris
Anyone that comes to Vegas knows that the gambling on the strip sucks, no matter what game you play. VP is really bad, and getting worse. Larger Caesars now sucks everywhere. I was in Boca Raton last week, and visited the Isle Pompano Park. No good VP, very sucky benefits (I played there 3 days, and it seems that I made about half the tier credits I used to make). And the tribal casinos are maybe slightly better. Could not find any 9/6 JOB anywhere in South FL. Its not hard to get to Diamond, but 7 Stars, you might as well just write them a check for $150K. Or….my new philosophy. Forget the strip and the big gaming corporations. I am going to Laughlin next weekend. Staying at Harrahs. Probably the last time. I am Diamond Elite (big deal). Room comps only. (no good food choices anyway). Their VP has sucked for years, and from what my friends tell me, its even worse now. No more trying to achieve a Diamond or 7 Stars level (I am in Vegas 4 or 5 times a year). I am taking the free rooms and suites this time, but playing at one of the other hotels, like Aquarius, which has lots of full pay VP, better paying slots, and better comps. I am a $1 and $5 player. I do not play BJ or other table games except for Craps. Time to have fun and stop worrying about tier levels. Its much cheaper.
The Las Vegas Strip has the very best people watching in the world, and some fabulous hotels… My wife will never ever green light a Las Vegas trip for an off the strip hotel, gambling is not everything, staying at a hotel that offers lousy games invariably saves me some money. Now that the Park MGM is no smoking, it’s our new permanent home base, just having a safe clean air space where my wife can breath is priceless. During the day I go to South Point, Silverton, Red Rock and others to gamble, then Downtown at night. Someone on another blog reported that the very best craps table minimum on a weekday afternoon was $15 Downtown, so apparently even Downtown is turning into a nightmare… I sure hope the San Manuel Tribe bucks the trends when they reopen The Palms, but I am mentally prepared for disappointment, the last several years prepared me for casino sticker shock…
Corporate America ruined Vegas. Completely agree with Kevin. Vegas and even the casinos throughout the country has some of the dumbest people in them that just don’t have any sense of value. From my observations, VP players only care about “aces” no matter what everything else pays. Table games players are even more stupid with all of the superstitions out there.
Years ago before corporations took over the strip, Casinos offered better paying Video Poker machines as each casino was vying for your business. Competition between casinos I believe was the main reason why there were good video poker machines. Today competition doesn’t mater any longer. As it appears that these corporations are working together and have said lets make all of the video Poker schedules the same schedules which are al bad. Same goes with the restaurants if you want a steak whether it’s at any one of the so called big name chefs casino restaurants its $65 and a baked potato is $15. Oh and by the way these restaurants are no longer owed by the casino they are owed by the big name chef that leases out the space from the big corporation so there is no real cost for the casino but collect the rent. Same goes for the for big name entertainment.
These corporations could care less about their guests because if they did they would try to lure them by offering something that the other corporation does not. Competition doesn’t exist any longer when it costs $9 for a bottle of beer whether it be at MGM or at Caesars. They know strip visitors are captive and cant go anywhere else so they will pay whatever the price is, $9 for beer or $65 for a steak. They do not care about locals in their lean times of they year to keep income coming in as these prices make up for slow times between Labor day and Christmas and New Years and March Madness. Things will never be s they were. that’s life no matter where you live.
I believe that Bob was referring to the Borgata when he mentioned that points couldn’t be earned on VP machines. What’s happening at the Borgata is that you can earn free play points on any VP machine but only a very very few vp machines with good pay tables at one bar will redeem them. Alternative is to redeem them on lousy VP pay tables or slot machines.
“A walking-wallet.”
Good one Boris!
Actually no, Larry. I knew about the Borgata’s system. they have a similar system in BConnected casinos in Vegas and elsewhere.
I heard a report concerning MGM’s National Harbor casino and that was what I was referring to.
Michael is 100% right about people watching. Vegas has the rights to that one. That in itself is a good way to spend time. Walking and watching. Have seen some very strange things over the years. Lots of drunk people tripping over themselves, people who seem to forget to get dressed before they leave their room (about 3 in the morning). Couples having arguments about money (I make $18K a year, I should be able to take $20 and gamble). Some pretty funny stuff.
Aquarius has downgraded many of the pay tables in the last few months.
Bob,
Thanks for using my question. I am not a good customer for the strip after reading all the replies. I will stick to South Point and 4 queens when in Vegas. In Laughlin I will do most of my play at Riverside with some Aquarius.
Here is another scenario that might be used for a question of the day.
While play quarter bonus spin poker in Laughlin. I was dealt 3 to the royal and due to a bad button 1 card was not held. I did get dealt the other 2 cards to the royal and I was so irritated. I play a couple more hands then I stopped and complained to the slot tech. The slot technician confirmed the button in question only worked about 6-7 times out of 10.
The slot supervisor came over and reviewed the hands. He understood that I would have held the 3 to the royal. After about 20 the slot supervisor came over and paid me the $1,000 for the royal. Is this common? Or perhaps I’m at the highest level in the players club ?
Due to this situation, I continue to support this casino.
Sorry to disagree with you, Lucky, but drunk people, and people arguing, are two of the last things I have any desire to see or hear. Drunkenness is not funny to me (and lots of others agree with me); it’s pathetic, and it’s a sign of either a disease or one-night irresponsible behavior. All consequences of it are bad (especially people getting killed by drunk drivers). And arguments are just plain irritating to me; whenever a daytime talk show devolves into arguments, I switch channels. I can’t imagine traveling to Vegas and paying a bunch of money at a Strip hotel just to witness these two things.
Cresino, you make a good point about people who stay at a Strip hotel being captive. That is so true, and it’s doubly true in the hot summer months. I sure would not want to go out into 100 or 110-degree heat to walk to another Strip hotel/casino for any reason. That’s why I like downtown so much; in addition to other reasons, almost all downtown casinos are right across the street from another casino, so it’s easy as pie to walk to another casino for gambling, eating or anything else.
Michael A., if you’d like to gamble downtown, check out the El Cortez. It has always had the lowest minimums or been tied for the lowest minimums among downtown casinos. You could call them and ask about their minimums at various hours on different days and learn how they compare to other casinos, without you even going there.
Ive never NOT gotten paid for these type of errors in Las Vegas over the years, probably 5- 8 times over the last 20 years…at higher limits, so they do have incentive to keep you happy.
At my home (so cal) Indian joint they have also paid me nearly every time, and its been more like 15 times over the last ten years…and its almost never because of a sticky button, just playing to fast/carelessly.
The last time was quite recently…where I am playing DDB and its ugly as hell: Dealt AAAA3 on dollars…whip out my phone to record it; something im not used to doing. Welp i mistakenly forget to hold any of the Cards, and push draw while filming. Needless to say I didnt get AAAA3 on the redraw lol…
I get the Techs to come over and open up the machine, and they (and the Suits that are now there) do see what i had pre-draw. Who was the author that used to call them “ploppies” I forget (was it BD)? They are all saying sorry nothing we can do as I am talking fast and furiously…finally they get THE MAN down from his lair on the top floor or wherever he sits counting the money all day lol–who knows me well and we have battled in the past about mis-played hands and getting paid etc, so I know I am dead.
But argue I do anyhow, pleading my case, appealing to his sense of honor, I am thinking its going nowhere, but he finally relents and tells them to pay me!
I was very gracious and that is what to do when you make a mistake…always try to get paid, you never know…