At the recent World Game Protection seminars, casino expert Sal Piacente said: “Advantage players don’t want to cheat and aren’t doing anything illegal, but instead use their minds to beat the game, whether watching to see if a dealer exposes a hole card or by card counting.”
I’m not so sure.
For any group of 1,000 advantage players, you’ll have 1,000 different conclusions on how close to the line — or how far over the line — they are willing to go to collect money from casinos and others.
Richard Munchkin has said on the air that he and the teams he belonged to used electronic devices to help them play blackjack when it was legal, but when it became illegal, they stopped. I believe him. But I also believe that there are still APs today who use illegal devices to assist them in beating casinos.
Piacente spoke about card counting and hole carding. Those are legal maneuvers in many, but not all, jurisdictions. Try card counting in London and they’ll likely keep your money if you lose and not cash your chips when you win. Get caught hole carding at certain tribal casinos in Michigan and elsewhere, and you probably won’t be paid.
In video poker, most casinos say you can only play on your own player’s card and not anyone else’s. I’ve successfully played on both my card and my wife’s card at many casinos. I don’t consider that cheating. Occasionally a casino tells me I shouldn’t do that anymore, and when that happens I honor their directions.
There are players, though, who regularly play on 20 or 60 different cards. They find casinos that give generous mailers and other benefits for a minimum amount of play. I believe this to be fraudulent. I see this as very different from me playing on my wife’s card. Clearly others don’t make the same distinction I do.
I’m not claiming that I’m a saint. I’ve written about various things I’ve done in casinos and elsewhere that don’t pass the “smell test.” Most I wouldn’t do today.
Many players have the attitude of, “If you can get away with it, it’s not cheating,” while others have a more restrictive code of, “There is right and wrong and one should not confuse the two.”
In no way am I arguing that all APs cheat. That’s nonsense. Many of my best friends are APs and I trust them completely. But there are many other APs I do not trust. Richard once said about a famous AP, “I like him, but I would never do business with him.”
I’ve been burned before by strong players. Just because you can count cards successfully doesn’t mean you’re trustworthy. With that said, however, I do believe that there are a large number of players who win just by using their brain and skills without cheating at all. That’s how I like to think of myself — although I know that I’ve not always risen to that standard. But that’s my goal and I keep trying to achieve it.
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“ Those are legal maneuvers in many, but not all, jurisdictions……Get caught hole carding at certain tribal casinos in Michigan and elsewhere, and you probably won’t be paid.”
Just because an Indian casino won’t pay doesn’t make the activity illegal.
Actually, it does, Goose. Each tribe determines whether a given activity legal or not. And when a tribal council makes a ruling, that ruling can’t usually be appealed in non-tribal courts.
I have no idea what “hole carding” is, and I’m sure there are a lot of other people who don’t know this either. It would be helpful if you would define this term. (And it would be helpful if terms that are not known by everyone would always be defined.)
Switching topics, I don’t see how it’s possible for one person to play on 20 to 60 different slot cards. Isn’t it true that each account sign-up requires a person to give a unique name, address, phone number, etc? Who has 20+ different names, addresses or phone numbers? I don’t think the person would be able to get 20 other people to let him use their slot cards. So I don’t see how this is even possible. Let’s make this another thing to always be expounded upon: If a stated activity seems impossible, describe how it’s possible.
Watch the kiosks at any Station casino and you’ll regularly see people standing there swiping 10-20 cards consecutively and activating multipliers or promos. I agree that 60 seems extreme but it probably does happen.
Hole carding is when you find a Blackjack/21 dealer that will unintentionally expose their hole card (the one that is dealt face down) at least some of the time while dealing the hand. You can use that extra information to gain an advantage.
The AP’s (that I know) that seriously play multiple cards recruit strangers to go to the casino and sign up as a new player. The AP will make some deal to give benefits (cash, free meal coupons, etc.) to the new members. The AP will play the most efficient amount to earn the best yield in financial benefits from the mailer/promotions.
McLovin1 to McLovin60, no first name, organ donor
How do you get more than one card? They ask you for your drivers license when you sign up.
Failure to repay debt isn’t ethical, but it isn’t cheating. The question about whether APs cheat is clearly about violating gaming law and not about general ethics, like cheating on a spouse or lying to friends.
Those who study the correct plays for VP will always have an advantage over those who are just guessing. There is nothing wrong with that. I would never use multiple player cards.
A Chinese proverb says, “At the gambling table, there are no fathers or sons.”
It’s incredibly difficult no to dance in the grey area of the law, or at the very least perhaps walk that fine line very tightly if you want to be a successful AP. My two cents.
I would have to imagine that a fair amount of AP’s will cheat if an opportunity presents itself. Listening to horror stories of having a Blackjack partner screw over the team by stealing and lying seems to be one such trick. But sometimes just being aware can be a rewarding experience. Last month a cashier at Kroger unknowingly handed me a silver quarter back as change and due to the pitch and tone of the silver hitting the other zinc coins I knew 100% I was receiving a silver quarter before I even verified it by looking at the date. I also walked out of my local branch bank with a free silver (Dime) two years in a row by checking the coin return slot when cashing in my coins. All the bank gets back are zinc pennies, I keep the copper ones. I even found a nice 14K white gold ring with diamonds lying in the road in front of my home undamaged and received a “W” River of No Return quarter from a Tobacco Shop in May in about MS-65 condition, one that I needed.