Bonnie’s family accepts that I’m a successful gambler. They also believe that the methods and discipline I use to succeed involve far more study than they want to invest — especially since it will never be more than an occasional hobby for any of them.
Fine with me. I have no need to turn anybody else into a video poker pro. It’s really hard to succeed if you WANT to do so. It’s basically impossible if your heart isn’t in it.
Except.
Most of this branch of Bonnie’s family never gambles at home (these particular ones live in Central California) and when they come to Vegas to visit, they want to gamble. And they are GOING TO gamble. And they are going to gamble at penny slots.
Once they asked my advice. My advice to very occasional penny players is very dissimilar to what I would advise my usual readers. Given the audience, I suggested:
- Only bring money you can afford to lose.
- Never visit casino ATMs. If you lose what you rationally thought you could afford, give it up for this trip. On the games you are playing, the odds are against you and collecting more money from the ATM means you’re probably going to lose more money — and pay outrageous fees for the privilege of losing.
- Probably the best odds for penny slots will be found at the South Point. You still have the worst of it, but at least your money will last longer. And Bonnie hosted them to a nice dinner and show there, so they would be at that casino anyway.
Simple enough, I thought. If they get pleasure out of playing these games, fine with me.
Except.
They ended up at the M (which has FAR tighter machines than South Point), lost what they came with, and hit the ATMs. Lost that money too.
So, they figured out the rational thing to do at this point is DTB, which stands for “Don’t Tell Bob.” And they didn’t tell me, although Bonnie spilled the beans after her family went home.
I actually like their DTB philosophy. I do not want to be “Daddy” to a bunch of senior citizens. They absolutely do not need to ask my permission to gamble however they want.
Am I disappointed in them? No, not really. I understand my study and discipline is pretty rare in the gambling world and other people enjoy the “sport” in different ways. It’s not inexpensive to gamble this way, but those are choices for them to make. They aren’t asking me to support their hobby, so why should I care?
Plus, my host at the M gave them a nice room for the weekend based on my play. The fact that they chose to play there (and ended up predictably losing there) has a certain element of fairness to it. I mentioned to my host that Bonnie’s relatives aren’t competent gamblers and will probably want to gamble anyway — and it was partly based on what I told the host that they got the room for free.
That’s how Vegas works – whether they tell me or not!
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The Southpoint is huge. I agree that they have good rules, good paytables, and….good promotions. I never figured out why the M cut down on the paytables and removed all the good machines. The new owners obviously also don’t like to loosen up the machines, but somewhat it seems to work out for them. Sad that they took out the beverage machines. It was just great to get an ice cold soda whenever I was thirsty.
Since I work in the industry, I am often asked how to play, where to play, what machines pay the best, etc. I have learned to explain that they are going to lose their money no matter what I tell them, so just have fun with it, and consider the money you lose the payment for the fun you had. Of course, to me, there is no fun in losing money, but I am tired of telling people the best plays on tables and slots only to hear or see them later ignore everything I told them. Saving my breath from now on.
DTJ
I’ve enjoyed this article very much. Though it was about penny slots this time and although I do not play them due to its high hold. I enjoy watching other people playing them, its very interactive these days. I did understand the main point of the article.
I was wondering about a few things.
About the ATM advice, I’ve read past articles with regards to using Casino Credit/Markers for transporting a bankroll to the casino. It carries no fees provided that the funds are paid back in full in 30 days, it allows people to access more than a daily ATM withdrawal limit of $300 or $500. Did you avoid telling Bonnie’s relatives about this for the concern that they might lose so much money? I was at the M Resort not too long ago, and I saw they charge $3.99 (plus your bank will asses a charge for not using their ATM) per transaction. I would not consider it outrageous as long as they do not make lots of small transactions. Some banks such as Bank of America, their Preferred Rewards program waive this fee.
I was curious about slot returns between the Southpoint and the M Resort. How the M Resort is much tighter than the Southpoint. I can easily believe that the Southpoint is much looser than the mega resorts on the strip. Does the M Resort fall into the category of a strip casino? I always thought it was local.
All I can find online is an article on the Las Vegas Sun from 2010 with an interview with Mr. Gaughan. He stated has loosen the payback of the penny slots by 1-2%.
The CasinoCenter.com’s annual article about the Loosest Slots in the nation mentions the M Resort (along with Boyd Properties, Palms, Hard Rock) being the 2nd loosest in the nation category for 2016, with Reno, NV being the loosest.
Were Bonnie’s relatives playing for bounceback mailers? The Southpoint is based on a curve so they would have to lose more than a certain amount of other players to get the good mailers. The M Resort is based on Average Daily Theoretical, and I know that based on a season, a slot player can be eligible for 8x or 10x points for slots, thus 2.4% or 3% cashback on their Marquee Rewards club card. I know Southpoint has their point multipliers on the one big days of the month. Is the gap in between the two that wide?
Lastly, wouldn’t playing video poker without any knowledge of strategy return more than penny slot?
The rooms at the M are very, very nice. My guess is they probably lost around what they would have paid for the rooms anyway. As noted, the penny games are losers…truth be told, most every game is a loser for the non-pro player. However, gambling for most is entertainment and if your in-laws enjoyed themselves (when the novice player gets a bonus on a penny game, it’s pretty thrilling), it’s just fine.
I like to put in this perspective: my hobby is gaming. I play a variety of games. In a years time, I might lose a thousand dollar. Compare this to the desert four wheeler hobbyist, or the boating hobbyist, or the rifle hunting hobbyist…I can pretty much say without reservation, these folks spend FAR more money on their hobby than I do…and I’m usually sleeping in an air conditioned room with a shower, many times on a comp.
I’d take my hobby any day.
You ask a lot of questions — several of which could be expanded into a long article. I’ll give brief answers.
Lines of credit take quite a bit to set up. These relatives come to Vegas every five years and lose maybe $200 each time. Lines of credit are for more frequent and/or bigger players.
M is local — but its games are reminiscent of a Station Casino — with all machines above 99.2% eliminated. M has super nice amenities but tight gaming. South Point has much better gaming, and okay amenities. The casinos are only a few miles apart — but very, very different.
Do not look to casinogaming.com as a reliable source of information about gaming. They sell their rankings. Any casino who buys enough advertising there can get excellent gaming ratings.
You’re asking about bounceback mailers??? They aren’t coming back for four years and I’m certainly not going in to pick up $5 in free play for them. I’m not sure her relatives were even playing with a card! They absolutely were not attacking gambling in an intelligent fashion. You, alpax, have considerable casino experience and are clearly interested in the way the system works. These people do not have that experience or interest. Don’t try to impose your thought processes on these very-occasional-recreational players.
Maybe bad video poker without skill would pay more than slots — but it’s a different experience. Video poker players have to make a lot of decisions — right or wrong. These people were in the casino to relax and have fun
Thank you Mr. Dancer for the responses, I will strictly limit myself to one or two from now on. The responses between the M Resort and Southpoint were VP related, I wanted to know where you were able to get the penny slot machine returns; but that might have been outside of the realm of your expertise.
Bob, I hope that you don’t consider that my reply is in any way questioning your integrity. I’ve enjoyed reading your columns for ;years, and have a lot of faith in the information. My question is whether you are in a conflict of interest when vouching for the South Point? Since you offer classes at South Point, then it seems to me that you have a business relationship with South Point.
While I value your comments, I think that when offering opinions on their slot payouts, and also on a comparison to the “far tighter” machines at the M, it would enhance your already high credibility by declaring that there is a business relationship with South Point. Paul
Of course there’s a business relationship. South Point hosts my classes. They sponsor my radio show. None of this is secret.
At the same time, I’m a competent observer. The slots and video poker at South Point ARE looser than the games at M. This is no secret among knowledgeable players either.
You say that “of course there’s business relationship”, but you can’t assume that every single reader would be aware of this. It’s simply good practice to disclose this relationship to readers when commenting on the place and on their competitor. Journalism Ethics 101.
What’s often not considered is that someone in a position to promote might have sought out the best candidate to begin with. I run into a similar situation all the time when someone asks me to recommend the best book on a subject. I often recommend one that’s published by Huntington Press, because I’ve purposely acquired the manuscript knowing it was better than anything else that’s out there. It seems incestuous, but it’s really the true best answer. I’d say there’s a lot of that going on here.
Bob:
I’ve always wondered if you ever ran across Lenny Frome in your earlier video poker career. He died n 1998 but he would have been a contemporary of yours so I was wondering if you ever met him. If so perhaps you could share a few stories or anecdotes about him in a future column!
I bought some of his books and strategy cards twenty or so years ago and that’s when I realized that Video Poker was probably my best bet for breaking even or maybe even winning some money once in a while.
By the way, you are listed under the “See Also” section of Lenny’s Wikipedia site.
Thanks for not giving your wife’s family a lecture. As you rightly pointed out, they are grown-ups who are willing to “pay” their own money to have a good time in a casino. When I gambled with my late mother-in-law I used to sometimes give her advice but she rarely took it. She would say something like “I had a hunch that drawing two cards to an inside straight was going to work this time”. Eventually I just let her do what she wanted and had fun being with her in that time and that place. I wish I could gamble with her still because she got such a kick out of it and she was fun to be around while she was doing it. She used to win sometimes but even when she didn’t win she still had a great time and usually got a meal and a few free drinks out of it!
I met Lenny a few times — but only in passing and I don’t have any interesting anecdotes about him
“At the same time, I’m a competent observer. The slots and video poker at South Point ARE looser than the games at M. This is no secret among knowledgeable players either.”
I found the answer that I was looking for. Thanks!
The info about the South Point slots being loser is based on what? I’m not trying to be a jerk just wondering how one would find out such things.
I’m a low roller craps player so I don’t mind the low odds there but all my traveling party likes slots. Is the South Point a good choice then ?
I know craps is not really a GWaE thing but I do adhere very strictly to Bob’s ATM rule 😉