In February, I was playing 25¢ Five Play Multi-Strike 9/6 Jacks or Better at the South Point. This is a 99.79% game, played for 100 coins ($25) at a time. With the normal 0.30% slot club, the knowledgeable player has a small advantage all of the time.
In February, however, there were always two casino-wide progressives going on which added some small amount of EV. The bigger progressive must hit between $10,000 and $25,000, and was currently at about $22,000. Assuming there were 1,000 players playing, each of us had a 1/1,000 chance of hitting the progressive — but if we were in the other 999/1000 when it went off, we’d each receive $25 in free play.
It was not a huge amount of equity, but I needed to get some play done to keep the mailers coming, so this was the time I would be playing.
There are four such machines at the casino, and frequently the other three of them are empty. This time, however, there were two guys playing the 9/6 Double Double Bonus version of the same game. I had never seen them before, but they were discussing hands like they knew what they were talking about.
Although I hadn’t checked recently, I was pretty sure that the Jacks or Better game returned quite a bit more than the Double Double Bonus game. Still, here were two obviously knowledgeable players, so I decided to check next time I was at my computer.
When I got home that night, I discovered that the 9/6 DDB Multi-Strike game returned 99.18%. While I didn’t have this number at my fingertips, it was consistent with about what I thought it was. The base game starts out with JoB worth 0.56% more than DDB and I thought the Multi-Strike aspect to the game would add approximately the same amount to each game. It turned out that it added 0.25% to JoB and 0.20% to DDB.
Two days later I stopped by and the progressive was more than $20,000 again, so I sat down to play. One of the players from two days before was there and he asked me if I was Bob Dancer. He told me he had purchased the Video Poker for Winners software years before and that taught him how to play the game. He comes to Vegas five times a year for a four-day trip and always played DDB Multi-Strike. He boasts that he was taught by Bob Dancer.
I asked him why he played DDB rather than JoB? He said the results were all about the quads and it was a lot more exciting for him.
I told him I understood. Four aces return $200 or $500 (depending on whether they have a kicker) and on the 2x, 4x, or 8x line it can turn into a taxable. Four 2s, 3s, and 4s pay $100 or $200 depending on the kicker and the other quads pay $62.50. These numbers are quite a bit larger than the $31.25 that all quads pay in JoB. Excitement is fun!
At the same time, I told him the game he played returned 0.6% less than the JoB version. Since he played about $150,000 each time he came to Vegas, on average that’s $900 per trip or $4,500 per year. Was it that much more exciting?
Even JoB is plenty volatile in the Multi-Strike version. DDB is quite a bit more so. Yes, there will be trips he goes home a winner, but there will also be trips he loses quite a bit. He agreed, saying he was down $8,000 so far this trip.
This guy taught himself how to play, thanks to the software. But there’s a lot more to playing successfully than just knowing how to play the hands.
If this guy has the money and this is how he wants to spend it, great. Everybody gets to make their own choices.
Still, it bothered me that someone who loses so much regularly tells people that I was his teacher!
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This is common amongst the DDB players no matter the game type.
DDB is probably the better game if you take into account marketing offers. Of course, it would be stupid to say this in a casino, so instead you say: “It’s all about the quads”.
You bring up an interesting thing to think about, Liz.
If EV pf twp games is similar, the one with the higher variance can yield higher offers on average. When you win, you get low offers and when you lose you get bigger offers. On average, this can work out for the player who can handle the swings.
In this case, however, the difference in EV was 0.6% and the guy played $150K per trip. It’s unlikely that that $900 per trip will be made up in marketing offers.
While I know that vp hardware has supported different theo’s for different games on the same machine for some time now, are there many casinos that implement this ability? In other words, I’m asking what are the chances that South Point applies different theo’s on these two games in determining play “value”. (I grasp that SP is a pretty smart operator, so quite willing to concede that they do.)
As to Bob’s last comment, I’ve played 9/6 DDB (or 15/9 DW) when 9/6 JB was available, despite the 0.6% EV disadvantage. In one case, the DDB was assigned a hold that was 5% stronger. Assuming that base marketing offers (not including special promo eligibility) were based on 20% of theo, the 0.6% disadvantage was handily compensated.
1) ” He boasts that he was taught by Bob Dancer.”
The Bob Dancer I know teaches to Gamble when you have an edge. So I don’t know which Bob Dancer he’s referring to.
2) “he was down $8,000 so far this trip.” Clearly the Quads were not all about him. 🙂
But I understand the obsession with quads. It’s what started me on DB, but since the promotions I have access to didn’t overcome the house edge, I rolled back to JoB and upped my denom. I learned from some fellow called Bob Dancer. 🙂
What’s the highest freeplay offer that South Point sends out? I know that in the past $1,000 was no big deal but maybe lately they’ve cut back the marketing department. You might have some inside info on this. Also, you’re taking this guy’s word that he plays $150K per trip. Like fishermen, gamblers are known to exaggerate. Sometimes over, sometimes under, I mean if you find a fishing hot spot, why spread the word?
” He boasts that he was taught by Bob Dancer.”
The Bob Dancer I know teaches to Gamble when you have an edge. So I don’t know which Bob Dancer he’s referring to.
Well, yeah. In this particular case, he learned from software that had my picture on the front. Close enough, as far as he was concerned.
I can not count the amount of times I’ve been at Main Street Station and seen someone playing 9/5 DDB (with a progressive on the RF) and overheard them tell a friend “Bob Dancer would say thats the wrong play.”
Every time I hear that all I can think is Bob Dancer wouldn’t play that game!!
^ Especially now that they’ve rolled those machines at MSS back to 8/5.
Obviously, Bob will play anything if the progressive is high enough or the promotion attractive enough, just like in blackjack, the base game doesn’t really matter any more. The good players are playing the promotions.
I was unaware that multi strike was higher EV than the standard format. Is there any additional strategy needed to achieve it?