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  • Things are Always Changing

Things are Always Changing

October 29, 2019 10 Comments Written by Bob Dancer

Most of the specific video poker games I played two years ago are gone. The reason for this is that either casinos have downgraded the machines (e.g. changed the full house from paying 45 to paying 40) or downgraded my welcome in playing that game. 

In one casino, the downgrade in welcome was a formal trespass. Others said no mail and no comps. Others said no mail only. In some cases, I have found playable games in casinos where I am no-mailed, but not on a regular basis.

For many strong players, my experience is fairly typical. The question now is, “Where do I go from here?”

Not so long ago, I wrote about playing progressives. That remains an option. It requires a LOT of study to get up to speed on all the progressives that sometimes go positive in my area, and it requires a LOT of scouting to keep up with which progressives are positive today.

I live in Las Vegas and within 15 miles of my home are more than 30 casinos offering progressives that are sometimes appropriate and I might consider playing — in about 15 different game varieties. To check out each of them daily would take more than eight hours — including driving, parking, walking through the casinos, etc. Anybody who does this eight hours a day has no time to play.

You can team up with others, of course, assuming you can find competent people you trust who trust you and are looking for more people. Every additional person on a team dilutes the per-member revenue from each royal flush, although that may be offset by more profitable games being found and hit.

A recent case involved a guy, “Bo,” who was the fastest guy ever at finding progressive opportunities. He could zip through a casino as quickly as a sprinter, and when he saw a game could analyze it instantly. Even if you know, for example, that for every hundred dollar increase on the progressive for four aces with a kicker adds 0.13% to the game, if you see a dollar meter at $2,148.34, how valuable is that? Bo could see at a glance that it is 0.19%. He could do similar calculations for four aces without a kicker, four 2s, 3s, 4s with a kicker, four 2s, 3s, and 4s without a kicker, and even the straight flush if it had a progressive on it. Usually the royal itself has a progressive on it as well, and Bo will add that in.

To make such numbers useful, he had to know the base amount of the game. That is, are we talking about 9/6 Double Double Bonus (98.98%), 9/5 (98.87%), 8/5 (96.87%), or whatever? And he had to know similar numbers for various pay schedules of Deuces Wild, Deuces Wild Bonus, Bonus Poker Deluxe, Jacks or Better, etc. You’re definitely allowed to write these down and to use a calculator, but that takes a bit of time to accomplish.

Bo needs to know how fast the progressive is incrementing. If the meters increase by a half-percent for every dollar input, you need to wait longer before you start to play than if the meters increase by a full percent. This is not difficult to figure out if you’re the only player on the bank of machines. If several players are playing and you don’t know how fast the meter is going up, you’re going to have to estimate.

He needs to know how the slot club works in each place. Does it have some sort of cash back? How much? Is it free play? Will he get mailers? Are they running any sort of special promotions this month? 

Once he adds all this up, he comes up with a percentage return, a “dollars per hour” figure, and a risk of ruin. (This is the easy part, so far. Really.)

If the numbers are high enough, he calls “Charlie,” who is his main partner. Can Charlie come over now? How long can Charlie stay? 

Bo and Charlie have a set of agreements that handle how they are going to split the profit or loss from any given game. Every now and then a new situation comes up and they need to make a decision on the fly. This does not always go smoothly.

Sometimes both Bo and Charlie have other things to do and a game worth, say, $100 per hour is there to be played. What then? Bo has other teammates who may be available to be called, but that really complicates the splitting of the money.

Say Bo and Charlie are down $8,000 between them on a game where the royal is $7,500. They need to call in somebody else who ends up hitting the royal at $7,600. How is the money split? Each of the players could reasonably have a different idea about how this should be done.

And how about if the new player isn’t as fast or knowledgeable as Bo and Charlie? What then? He’s not contributing as much as the others, but I assure you that he’ll want a full share on any profits.

And what if the third guy says he can come, but he has to bring his girlfriend with him. She doesn’t really know how to play, but they’ll sit together (if possible) and he’ll coach her? And he thinks she should get a full share.

And what if one of the “extended team” has had some “minor” integrity issues in the past? He can usually be trusted financially, but if his rent is due…. If you really need a body to hold a machine, do you forgive and forget — knowing that if you do, you may well be ripped off?

What if one or more of the team shows up “slightly” drunk or stoned?

Were I on a team, I could be trusted to be competent and honest. But I’m 72 years old. I’m faster and more accurate than many players, but not as fast as I used to be. I have enough assets that I’m not hungry to succeed at this. I don’t want to work more than four hours straight. I have a schedule that includes teaching classes, going to square dances, and attending improv sessions. I have a wife with health issues that takes priority over everything. It would be easy for a team leader to conclude that dealing with my schedule would be more trouble than it was worth.

And I’m just one guy. Every potential team member has some sort of back-story that affects his/her availability at least some of the time. Nobody is available 24/7. And everybody’s speed and competence are different from the next guy’s. How do you deal with that?

Teams come together and fall apart regularly. There are some long-lasting video poker teams that have been together for decades, but those are very few and very rare. And I have no clue as to how they have done it. 

Dealing with the “people aspects” of having a team is tough. I believe it is more difficult than finding the good games. But should good games and good welcomes become increasingly more difficult to come by, learning to deal with these people aspects just might become necessary.

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Bob Dancer, video poker
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10 Comments

  1. Jerry Jerry
    October 29, 2019    

    I never play on a team. There are too many complications.

  2. Larry Larry
    October 29, 2019    

    For the non-professionals… who visit a casino maybe a handful of times a year… who aren’t trying to make a career out of gambling… but have followed Bob and other teachers, and have made the effort to learn the games and recognize which games are playable and fair and which games are not… what are we supposed to do? We also see the good games going away… and we see our slot club benefits and offers being reduced.

    Gambling used to be a pleasant side amusement. It’s tedious and not nearly as much fun now.

  3. Dunbar Dunbar
    October 30, 2019    

    Much of my 40+ years of blackjack, video poker and tournament play has involved some kind of teaming up. Having a Team Agreement, and making sure each person signs off on it, is really important. As Bob noted, things may come up that aren’t covered in the Team Agreement, but the more things you can think of ahead of time, the better your chance of things going smoothly.

  4. Steve Freund Steve Freund
    October 30, 2019    

    I know you do not play quarters , but your readers do. I thought you might be interested in The Cannery. The progressive machines reset to $1400 instead of $1000 and it is progressive on all the games offered ( most of the more popular games are there). There are also a few progressives that have some different video poker progressives on them and they also reset at $1400.

  5. Jerry Jerry
    October 30, 2019    

    It is time to face the fact that this commerical or business thing has destroyed video poker for all of us. Sure we study strategy and like to win and play the best machines we can find. We however don’t do it full time for a living. How many have been at casinos where professionals tie up machines for days playing in shifts. Is this fair for visitors. I by no means am taking up for casinos but they have no obligation to provide you with a living. Bib dancer himself said early in his career a friend had asked him if this was not going to come back and bite him in the ass. Well this has happens. Sorry but professionals will just have to do what we have for years. Play for fun but to win. When offers and comps stop coming then walk away from video poker. I can play mediocre vp 30 minutes from my house. Sorry but I do not feel sorry

  6. Liz Liz
    October 31, 2019    

    For short term play (“a handful of times a year”), the new “advantage slots” make the most sense. Search on the interwebs if you don’t know what that is. I always advise: “don’t quit your dayjob and move to Vegas” but for something high variance like video poker you really need to commit the hours. The figure of merit in that regard is called Nzero (or N0), and it is equal to variance/edge^2 hands. So the place to start in Vegas is FPDW and assuming the extra comps cover your error rate, you’re still looking at something like 26/.0075^2 = about half a million hands. If you can get to 1000 hands per hour, that’s almost 500 hours. And that’s assuming your error rate doesn’t increase the more you play and become tired of playing and more distracted.

  7. Nudge Nudge
    November 5, 2019    

    Bob, I am curious as to what percent of your readers/listeners are still trying to make gaming a major source of income. Also, what number would you pick for a percent of them that don’t really know when they cross the fine line between hobby and addiction? My comment for all of us comes from some lyrics from the huge BeeGee’s hit, “Stayin’ Alive”. Robin and Maurice are gone, but Barry is still with us. Here is the portion that we can all sing:
    “Feel the city breakin’ and everybody shakin’
    I’m a-stayin’ alive, stayin’ alive
    Ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin’ alive, stayin’ alive
    Ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin’ ali-i-i-i-ive”

  8. Liz Liz
    November 5, 2019    

    Saturday Night Fever! That era only makes sense when you realize everyone was doing cocaine. Search “JJ Cale Cocaine”. Also “One of a Kind, the rise and fall of Stu Ungar”.

  9. Ken Ken
    November 8, 2019    

    I agree that things are always changing – and in fact I’ve recently seen a cashback/reward change that makes it difficult to determine how good/bad a new opportunity might be. I have kept close records of my action at a particular casino and over the past 12 months have played about $3,000,000 coin-in… The underlying game is 99.5+ and I play perfectly, but I’ve been a bit unlucky over this 12 month period. However, I’ve been rewarded with about $15,000 in freeplay coupons. That’s 0.5%! Adding in the other cash-back and value I assign to comps, this makes it a very good play for me. But I know people with comparable action who have gotten far less… Is this a new model based on actual results? If so, it’s hard to figure out how good it really is. It’s a little bit like the old “loss rebates” but with unknown percentages… Anyone else experienced this?

  10. TF TF
    February 3, 2021    

    Excellent article. I have been scouting high limit progressive on the regular for four years. I found one time a machine that was about $400 hourly, but that’s it. If you enjoy the exercise of scouting then its a good gig. Working in a trustworthy team is always superior in my opinion, but going solo is an option. I consider myself a smart person, but it is hard for me to even keep two games in my head. I don’t try to keep three. Bonus poker and Double Double bonus is all I focus on. #1 most important thing is to take proper wrist and back care.

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