A gambler friend, Al, and I were on the phone talking about something related to vitamin supplements, and then he said he had a video poker question that he was embarrassed to ask me.
“Go ahead,” I prompted. “If it’s too awkward, I just won’t answer.”
He told me it wasn’t particularly awkward; it was just about a quarter game he found in Mississippi. He normally plays for higher stakes and was embarrassed to let me know that sometimes he went “slumming,” to use his term.
There was a five-coin progressive that was attached to each of several games. The loosest game was pseudo NSU Deuces Wild (which he called Airport Deuces), namely the 15-9-4-4-3 version that returns 98.91% at reset. I’ll refer to this game as pNSU DW. The other game was the 8-5 Bonus Poker game with the 30-for-1 payout on all quads that returns 98.48% at reset. This game I’ll call 8-5-30 BP.
The royal was at $2,250, which is 9,000 coins when you’re playing for quarters. The reason he was asking about it is that the Deuces Wild game has a higher royal cycle, namely 43,432 hands versus 40,169 at reset for the Bonus Poker game.
Since Al was only going to play this game for a couple of hours, to kill time really while he waited for another gambling opportunity to open up in the same casino, he wanted to know if I would ever give up EV to go for the royal with the shorter cycle?
“Okay,” I told him. “It’s not too awkward. Especially if I can get a column out of it too!”
The first thing to consider is that Mississippi has a non-refundable 3% tax on W-2Gs. This tax would amount to $67.50 if he hit the royal right away. It would be larger if the progressive grew before he hit it. I realize I should use 9,000 coins to figure out the strategy and 8,730 coins to determine the return after the non-refundable tax. But for today, I’m just going to use the 9,000 figure.
The second thing was that the return of the games and royal cycles at 4,000 coins is considerably different than it is at 9,000 coins. Consider the following chart:
| 4,000-coin | Royal | 9,000-coin | Royal | |
| Return | Cycle | Return | Cycle | |
| pNSU DW | 98.91% | 43,122 | 101.46% | 37,319 |
| 8-5-30 BP | 98.48% | 40,169 | 101.38% | 32,516 |
There are several things to notice here. First, the returns on the games at the 9,000-coin level are now quite similar. When the royal increases just a little more, the 8-5-30 BP game will actually return more than the pNSU DW game.
Second, the royal cycle for 8-5-30 BP is decreased by 7,650 as the royal amount goes from 4,000 to 9,000 and the pNSU DW royal cycle over the same change in royal amounts is changed by ‘only’ 5,800. The reason for this difference is that in Deuces Wild variations, you still generally hold on to all dealt deuces, no matter how high the royal gets. (The one exception is four natural cards to the royal along with one deuce.)
So, to answer Al’s question as to which game I would play, my first answer is, “Neither of them.” Depending on how fast you play, these games are only worth $10 to $15 an hour, with significant variance. I would not take the time to learn a brand-new strategy, and the adjustments necessary when the royal went up eventually to 9,500 coins or 10,000 (which it might, but probably not while he was playing if he was only going to play for an hour or two) for that little money.
Players with small bankrolls who would normally consider a $10-per-hour to $15-per-hour game quite acceptable should realize that a very large percentage of the return is in the royal flush, and if you’re not the one who hits the royal (which is the most likely result in a few hours of play) you’re going to be taking a big loss. Plus, in addition to the 3% state tax, you’re going to be getting a regular W-2G, which has its own consequences.
But those things aside, if I HAD to pick one game or the other, I’d pick the 8-5-30 BP game. It’s simpler to learn well, and while it has a slightly lesser return than pNSU DW now, it’s return will be the best one very shortly.
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Bob
That game with 30-1 for all quads is Jacks or Better, not Bonus Poker
Richard
I agree and have said as much numerous times that games that return 2-for-1 for two pair and the same amount for all quads is rightly called Jacks or Better, rather than Bonus Poker.
IGT, however, names these games Bonus Poker (whether they pay 30-for-1 or 35-for-1) and that’s how the machine is labeled.
So in this particular blog, I decided to go with how the machine is labeled. If I were working out a strategy, however, I would go to a Jacks or Better game and adjust the pay schedule, because the adjustment would be much easier than if I started with a Bonus Poker game.
what casino’s in vegas has the 8-5-30 BP games?
>however, I would go to a Jacks or Better game and adjust the pay schedule, because the adjustment would be much easier than if I started with a Bonus Poker game.
Maybe this is a topic for another column: What hands are played differently between JOB and BP strategies?
Wizard of odds shows the return drops by <0.01% if you use BP strategy instead of JOB; and for BP it costs you 0.01% to use the JOB strategy.
You have to do $1M coin in for the difference to add up to $100; so most readers probably don’t bother to learn the differences.
The Dancer Winner’s Guide has a complete discussion of the difference between flush 5 and flush 6 games, mostly as a result of the relative placement of straight flush draws and high cards. That covers most of the differences and the only changes related to bonus vs regular 9/5 jacks are very minor. In an event I get dealt a couple of high cards and a SF3 I pull out the strategy card anyway as the call happens rarely enough in a session. If I were playing this like a job I would probably study the differences more.
Mr. Dancer –
Would your answer be different if you were wearing your lucky shirt?
While going through the list of good videopoker games as listed on vpfree2 I could find a few casinos with fairly good games. Compared to European standards these are actually very good games. Compared to 5 years ago or 10 years ago the list is drying out like Lake Mead.
I also do a check-up on the monthly promotions that can be found on the websites of most casinos. There I see that the 2 big players have cut down on their multiplier days like I haven’t seen in years. It seems to me that Boys is not offering any multiplier day except the Seniors Day.
If you’re playing good vp games, and find a high progressive, I would think that such bonus points are actually more important than the little nuances between the games or minor errors during play.
I found a handfull of casinos in Las Vegas where it seems to me worth playing. The casinos that tightened up in a way that the players stand no chance even with a possible promotion will not get my attention any longer. Even the gift days are actually worthless as the stuff you get is mostly useless.
I also remember the wine days that were so attractive. Red Rock offered collectible bottles every week (for a little play or free to the higher tiers) and it was fun visiting. Where did these promotions go?
From Switzerland
Boris
sorry, I meant Boyd and not Boys….the reader will probably understand what company I was referring to anyways….
Boris from Switzerland always adds interesting information to the topics discussed in GWAE. But his insightful comments clearly and sadly show that profitable opportunities for gamblers in Las Vegas are definitely not what they used to be.
The sad thing is the casinos don’t care if the AP player likes the comp system, or the return percentage, they still get the uneducated players money still rolling in.