{"id":369,"date":"2011-09-01T02:08:00","date_gmt":"2011-09-01T02:08:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/gwae.apps-1and1.com\/my-interview-with-john-laurie-c-mi"},"modified":"2016-06-30T22:08:59","modified_gmt":"2016-06-30T22:08:59","slug":"my-interview-with-john-laurie-c-mi","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/gambling-with-an-edge\/my-interview-with-john-laurie-c-mi\/","title":{"rendered":"My interview with John & Laurie C. – MIT Blackjack team"},"content":{"rendered":"

This interview was conducted in 2002<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

\nThe history of blackjack has many roots at MIT.   Ed Thorp, author of Beat the Dealer<\/i>, did his original computer analysis at MIT on their
\ncomputer.  When Resorts International
\nopened in 1978 a group of MIT students combined forces to attack the casino,
\nand the \u201cMIT Team\u201d was born.  Though
\nthere were players from other schools, who refer to it as the \u201cBoston Team,\u201d
\nthe casinos labeled it the MIT team, and the name stuck.   Alumni from the team have gone on to great
\nthings.  Joel Friedman was the pioneer of
\nrisk-averse betting strategies, which he wrote about in his landmark 1980
\npaper. He also published in the Gambling Conference papers, on Kelly Criterion
\nand optimal simultaneous wagers.  Other
\nplayers went on to create Windows 3, and Windows NT.  Players have come and gone, the team has
\nmorphed and split into factions, but for over twenty years there has been a
\nconstant. His name is Johnny C.  I sat
\ndown with John and his wife Laurie, who is another member of the team.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n

<\/a><\/p>\n

\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How did the MIT team start?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Resorts International opened in Atlantic City in
\n1978.  Some of the students at MIT formed
\na team to go play.  As those players
\ndeveloped more experience, they joined up with others.  <\/i>There were players from
\nother schools like NYU, Princeton, and Harvard.  The turning point, which made the team
\nsomething to be reckoned with, was when a Harvard Business School graduate was
\nco-running the team.  He instituted
\ncheckouts and made people use the hi-lo. 
\nBefore that people used all kinds of complicated systems.  I hate to think how many errors they
\nmade.  I joined a couple years into
\nit.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How did you get involved?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I went to an IAP class. 
\nThese were classes that people taught between semesters.  I learned about counting, but realized that
\nyou needed money to make money.  I didn\u2019t
\nhave any money so I dismissed it.  Then a
\ncouple years later a friend of mine saw a sign that said, \u201cMake $300 over
\nspring break.\u201d  One of the major factors
\nin my going into blackjack was that I had difficulty at MIT.  The math department was really bad for
\nundergraduates, so I had drifted into electrical engineering. Not because I had
\na passion for it, but because it was the best department.  Anyway, I went to this meeting at the student
\ncenter.  I realized it was about blackjack,
\nand I thought, \u201cOh yeah, this stuff again.\u201d 
\nStill, I thought $300 was okay, and it sounded kind of cool.  I practiced and got a little better.  A lot of people had expressed interest, but
\nwhen spring break rolled around there were only five of us left.  As a result, I was able to squeeze into the
\ncar and I got to go to Atlantic City.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What year was this?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: 1981.  The first
\ncasino I went in was the Claridge, and it was overwhelming.  <\/i>I saw people betting $5
\nand I thought that was a lot of money to be betting.  That would pay for a meal.   Then I was told to go to The Park Place, and
\nback count.  I was given two hundred
\ndollars and told to sit down when the true count got to +1, and bet $5.  I could bet $10 at a true +2, but that was it
\nbecause my skills were marginal.  I
\ndidn\u2019t trust myself.  I was still making
\nbasic strategy errors, and I would make counting mistakes.  I probably played 20 hours.  I got a lot better and had a lot of fun.   I checked out in the classroom shortly after
\nthat.  Then they would watch you in the
\ncasino.  You had to check out at nickels,
\nthen quarters, then blacks, and ultimately full stakes.  While I was checking out at blacks I got my
\nfirst comp.   Wow, that was cool.  I didn\u2019t have to check out at full
\nstakes.  After that I was supporting the
\nteam, getting everybody free rooms and stuff. \n<\/div>\n
\n            It seems
\nthat people who end up doing the best had the least responsibility in the
\nbeginning.  Three out of four of our
\nmillion dollar winners were just gorilla BPs. 
\nIn the beginning I was a playing BP, but then I made some basic strategy
\nmistakes so they removed that responsibility from me.  I just had to follow the signals.  I would count but I would have this safety
\nnet.  By removing the burden from people
\nat the beginning they could learn without much stress.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Do you remember your first big score?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I remember my first big hand.  I bet $1600 at the Desert Inn and split tens
\nagainst a six.  At the DI you could split
\nas many times as you wanted.  I had five
\nhands.  After I split three or four times
\nthe casino manager came to watch.  He was
\nlaughing his ass off because this idiot Chinese kid was splitting tens.  The dealer busted so I won $8,000 on the
\nhand.  After the shoe the casino manager
\ncame over and gave me his card. <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What about your first big payday?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: That wasn\u2019t until years later.  I first played on a bank where we won a
\nbunch, but then lost most of it back.  My
\nreturn was about $2,000.  It was somewhat
\ndisappointing but I had a great time.  
\nMy first big win was on a mini bank. 
\nWe made a trip to Atlantic City and I made $12,000.  But I only had $5,000 to my name so that was
\nhuge.  I got to buy the calculator I
\nwanted.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What was the biggest win for someone on the team?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I think it was $250,000.  One of our players had established himself as
\na big player at Caesars.  That weekend he
\nbrought his family to Vegas.  We allow
\nplayers occasionally to do that.  We
\ndon\u2019t like it because there are so many risks of being thrown out and players
\nfeel pressure to avoid that, so they may not play their optimal game.   He gets to his room and it was some tiny
\nroom way in the back and he felt very insulted. 
\nI was talking to him on the phone and he said, \u201cThese guys are going to
\npay.\u201d  Okay, big words.  Then he calls me up and says, \u201cWell, I made
\nthem pay.\u201d  He won over $120,000 in one
\nshoe and I guess $250,000 for the weekend.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What unit size did you play?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: We would bet two hands of $2,000 for each half- percent
\nadvantage.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What was your maximum?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC:  Well, the limit
\nwas $10,000.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: You\u2019d bet two hands of $10,000?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Or three.  One of
\nour players bet up to six hands of $10,000. 
\nPlayers on Tommy\u2019s team complained to me about how blatant and excessive
\nthat was.<\/i><\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: I\u2019m surprised the biggest session was only $250,000 if
\nyou were betting that much.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: He didn\u2019t last long. 
\nBut he won something like $400,000 in about 3 months of play before he
\nquit playing due to intense heat.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What was S.I.?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Strategic Investments, or S.I., was a partnership we
\nformed when Foxwoods opened.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How big was the bank?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: One million. We recruited about 40 people, and we won
\npretty well at the beginning.   We won
\n$700,000 and then lost back almost all of it. \n<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: We were on the west coast, and we were just counting and
\nwinning.  The guys on the east coast were
\nplaying all these high e.v. and high c.e. games.  We didn\u2019t even know what c.e. was.  We just cared about winning.  We kept hearing from the east coast guys, \u201cWe
\nlost $100,000 but we had tremendous c.e.\u201d 
\nWe didn\u2019t want to hear from the east coast.  We called them the \u201cleast coast.\u201d  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: This is like the Rap Wars.  You\u2019re the Suge Knight of the blackjack
\nworld.  Let\u2019s talk about c.e.  What exactly is certainty equivalent?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: You can find this on the Internet, but essentially it is
\na variance-adjusted expectation.  Say you
\nhad a choice of fifty cents or a coin flip for a dollar.  Which would you take? The expectation is the
\nsame, but a rational person would take the sure money. Let\u2019s make the numbers
\nmore meaningful.  Would you take a half
\nmillion sure thing versus a million on the flip of a coin?  You get nothing if you lose the coin flip.  As the numbers get bigger you become more
\nrisk averse.  If I gave you $480,000
\nwould you take it?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: I\u2019d take the 480.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Would you take $400,000? 
\nAt some point you\u2019re going to be indifferent.  The certainty equivalent for that situation
\nis that number where you become indifferent. 
\nEven though the expectation of one is greater, you have to subtract off
\nsomething for the variance.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: So the players pay was based on that certainty
\nequivalent?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Yes.  There are
\nfour parameters associated with the c.e. 
\nOne is your risk tolerance.  We
\npreset that for the team, and people can invest more or less based on how risk
\naverse they are.  We would pick .3 or .4
\nKelly.  The other factors are bank size,
\nexpectation, and variance.   <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: These seem like tremendously important issues for
\nteams.  How do you pay people
\nequitably?  What is fair for everyone, and
\nis enough to keep them playing when the bank is stuck and it looks like they
\nwon\u2019t make any money for a long time?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: The way we changed over the years has reflected those
\nconcerns.  Initially we set a time target
\nof say, six months, and paid people only if we won.  We found that if we were unlucky at the
\nbeginning we would only have a few die-hards left playing.  Typically those diehards were people with big
\ninvestments, so they were playing to protect their investment.  Then we thought we could solve that if
\neveryone was equally invested.  In
\nreality you can\u2019t do that.  We tried the
\nsocialist approach, and tried to get people to commit to trips at the beginning
\nof the bank.  People would still drag
\ntheir feet, so we had higher shares of win if you committed to more.  But a higher share of nothing is still
\nnothing.  We tried a system based on
\ngetting your maximum bet out.  It is
\nimportant to encourage people to put the money out.  But some people are just afraid.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Have you finally found something that works?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: No.  The bottom
\nline is, if you aren\u2019t making much money it\u2019s hard to get people to play.  What we do now is pay people a salary per
\ntrip based on what we think their play is worth.  Then we pay them a share of the win when we
\nbreak the bank.  It works most of the
\ntime but if you get in a situation where you\u2019re down, the players are looking
\nat just a salary, and that may not be enough. 
\nIt certainly isn\u2019t enough to get them excited.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: The other problem is \u2013 the cool part is gone.  When we first started this was the coolest
\nthing I ever heard of.  Even if I didn\u2019t
\nget paid at all I would still do it.  I
\nwould never have been able to afford what they were giving us in comps and it
\nwas like a double life.  For older people
\nwho have families, they think it\u2019s just not worth it.   For the existing players you have to make it
\nworth their while.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: One thing I think about a lot is how to structure teams,
\nor organizations in general, so the motivations are right.  That is a really hard problem.  How do you handle R&D?  Scouting? 
\nTraining?  I like to have a
\nphilosophy to rely upon, a way of handling things so they handle themselves.  <\/i>When
\nyou have a large team you have interpersonal conflicts all the time.  I want to remove that as much as possible.  I don\u2019t want to be mediating for people who
\ndon\u2019t like each other.  One problem you
\nrun into is spotters who will hide way in the back where the BP can\u2019t see them.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: We have players who will never call the BP in even if
\nthe count goes up.  They\u2019re afraid of the
\nheat.  What\u2019s the point?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Don\u2019t you just get rid of those players?  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: You can\u2019t just fire people.  A disgruntled player can wreak havoc with
\nyou.  It\u2019s not like a regular business
\nwhere you can tell him to pack up his stuff and go home.  Disgruntled players have caused us big
\nproblems in the past.  Someone sold a
\nlist of our team members to Griffin.  Our
\nbusiness does not work with people who are not happy.   If you treat your employees like they are
\nworking at McDonalds you are never going to make money.  Most blackjack players are scrupulously
\nhonest and standup people.  But some
\npeople who disagree with you, and feel mistreated, are going to make you pay.  They may just quit playing or they may steal
\nfrom you.  I want to avoid that as much
\nas possible.  To the extent that I can I
\ntry to make things up front and fair.  <\/div>\n
\n            I realized
\nthat I wasn\u2019t wise to a lot of political considerations.  I think the Greeks are very good at
\nthis.  They all have worked in the real
\nworld, in law firms.  They\u2019re the picture
\nof political consideration.  They praise
\nthe players, and tell them how valuable and appreciated they are.  I didn\u2019t consider that important, and it hurt
\nme a lot.  The breakup of our group was
\nlargely because of my insensitivity to those concerns.  And it is a large part of why the MIT players
\nare now working for the Greeks.   <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How did S.I. end?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: S.I. ended because the guy managing it put an end to
\nit.  He worked very hard for a year and
\nreally didn\u2019t make much money.  It just
\nwasn\u2019t worth it to him to continue.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: After S.I. John was very disillusioned.  He wanted to start a new bank but he said
\neveryone had to be retested, and everyone had to put some investment in the
\nbank.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: That\u2019s better for you though.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Yes, but they didn\u2019t believe it.  I had to drag them kicking and screaming into
\ninvesting.  I wanted them to feel some
\nresponsibility for their results.  One of
\nthe players sent out an email saying the main objective of the bank was to have
\nfun.  I objected very strongly.  No man can have two masters.  If the objectives are to have fun and make
\nmoney there is going to be a conflict sooner or later.  This is a business.  If we are going to do it, we are doing it to
\nmake money.  Of course I want you to have
\nfun, but if it comes down to it I\u2019d rather make money.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: I only had $2,000 to my name but I invested it.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How big was the bank.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: $400,000.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: So you had half of one percent of the bank.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: Yes, but it was a lot to me.  That was all I had in my savings.  I was a poor kid just out of school.   So the new rules were, everyone had to put
\nmoney in the bank, everyone had to be checked out again, and no more shuffle
\ntracking, ace sequencing, or anything other than straight counting.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I saw too much of people fooling themselves about those
\ngames.  I looked at our results on those
\ngames and found them to be near zero.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: We started doing just big player call-in.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What happened?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: We started winning like pigs.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What happened to your $2,000 investment?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: The first bank I made $25,000.   I don\u2019t know how much was for playing and
\nhow much was investing.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I think the MIT group was a victim of its own
\nsuccess.  When people weren\u2019t making
\nmoney you had to stick together.  As soon
\nas people were making a boatload of money the attitude became, \u201cI know how to
\ndo this.  What do we need that investor
\nfor?  I\u2019ll just go play with my own
\nmoney.”  When people look at their
\nown investment and realize that other people\u2019s investment is hindering them, they
\nobject.  You\u2019ll get this effect in
\nanything you do.  When you\u2019re playing
\nsingle or double deck with a $10,000 bankroll you might double it in a few
\nweeks.  When you try to scale it up by 10
\ntimes it doesn\u2019t work that way anymore. 
\nYour rate of growth is much less. 
\nPeople start counting and say, \u201cI don\u2019t want any part of these big banks
\nbecause my capital isn\u2019t going to grow as fast.\u201d  But absolute dollars matter.  Sure you can double your $10,000 bankroll and
\nmake good return on your investment.  I
\ndon\u2019t remember what I made on that bank. 
\nLaurie said $160,000.  That
\ndoesn\u2019t happen for that player with a $10,000 bankroll.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How do you recruit people?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: With S.I. we just put up some posters at MIT.  That was basically it.  Then it was word of mouth.  Anybody at MIT has the intelligence and
\nskills to learn.  It was cool enough that
\nyou don\u2019t need to motivate them a lot.  
\nToday, we get people that are recommended by friends.  A problem that we had with the smarter MIT
\nfolks is they\u2019re kind of scared to put out the money.  They don\u2019t want to get burned out.  No one does, but they seem to be more like
\nthat than others.  Also, they rarely have
\ngood acts.  That\u2019s a problem in general
\nwith college students, being young.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Let\u2019s talk about the famous, rigorous, testing and
\ncheck out process.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: Our checkouts have gotten easier over the years.  When I started it was horrendous.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I heard that when players of ours joined the Greeks they
\ndidn\u2019t have to test because the Greeks said anyone who could pass our tests was
\ngood enough for them.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What was your first check out?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: I had to play ten shoes flawlessly. No payoff mistakes.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Payoffs?  The
\ndealer would try to steal from you?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: Yes.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Initially we didn\u2019t do the short-pay stuff.  The reason we added it was because I had a
\nbad experience in Czechoslovakia.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: The first seven shoes were without payoffs and the last
\nthree were with payoffs and color change. 
\nThe last shoe definitely has payoff errors.  You go through nine shoes perfectly and the
\nlast shoe you didn\u2019t do it right \u2013 that is what happened to me.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: So many people fail on the final round.  It\u2019s amazing. 
\nI think it\u2019s because of the psychological build up of tension.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Ten shoes had to be perfect.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: You were allowed a few errors.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How many errors?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Maybe five errors out of ten shoes.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: And they would give you ridiculous units \u2013 like $225
\nunits.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Wait, you have this $225 unit, and say the count is
\n+3.  If you bet $700 would that be
\nconsidered an error?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: No, you had to be off by a full unit for it to count as
\na betting error.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: So you were allowed five betting errors in ten shoes,
\nand five playing errors?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: No playing errors. 
\nNo basic strategy errors.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What if you didn\u2019t make a play based on the index
\nnumber?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: Index numbers were a separate checkout.  People are not required to know the numbers
\nto checkout.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: We found that playing index numbers, in general, hasn\u2019t
\nmade a difference.  In fact, some of our
\nbiggest winners didn\u2019t play index numbers at all.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Not even insurance?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Well, they knew insurance.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What about 16 against a 10?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC:  We modified basic
\nstrategy just a little bit because they are going to play only positive
\nshoes.  They had a +2 basic
\nstrategy.  People make mistakes when they
\nstart dealing with index numbers, and they play slower.  It can confuse their count.  The guys who won the money weren\u2019t playing
\nthe numbers.  They were just out there
\nbetting it playing basic strategy.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: I think this is going to bust a lot of the beliefs that
\npeople have about the way all this works.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: They think all the money is in the \u201csecret stuff\u201d like
\nshuffle tracking and ace sequencing.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Right.  But you
\nwon millions of dollars just counting and playing basic strategy.  I want to go back to the test.  Is this the first test?  Or is there a written test for basic strategy
\nfirst.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Yeah.  The written
\ntest is drawing the basic strategy chart. 
\nThere is more than just the kitchen table checkout.  When you deal to someone you see how shaky,
\nor not shaky, they are.  You can tell
\npretty quickly either they deserve to pass or they don\u2019t.  Initially it was just counting and betting.  One time I was in the Bahamas, and I had a
\nbig stack of greens, black and purples that I colored up.  The dealer made a big mistake.  He was going to give me $34,000 when it
\nshould have been $18,000.  Instead of
\njust taking it, I was confused and was just staring at it.  I thought, we never practice this.  I went to Paulson and bought a bunch of
\nchips.  We made this part of the
\ncheckout.  After that I know we had
\nvarious players report major color up errors on their behalf \u2013 like $10,000.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Do you ever go in the casino and check people out at
\nthe table?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: That\u2019s part of our checkout procedure.  There are various levels of checking
\nout.  This is part of the reason we just
\nplayed counting games.  I got rid of all
\nthe other games because I felt confident in our ability to play a quality shoe
\ngame.  All the other games have this
\njudgment involved.  How good are you at
\nestimating this?  How good are you at
\nremembering and recording that?  There
\nare so many ways to piss away your money in those games.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: Which we did.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Right.  Maybe they
\nwere only playing a break-even game.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: You were saying you had a test at home, and then a test
\nin the casino.  What would that entail?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Mostly it was seeing that they wouldn\u2019t fall apart once
\nthey got in the casino.  Can they handle
\nthe attention?  Can they handle the real
\nenvironment?   We made them bet it as
\nprecisely as they could.  When you\u2019re
\nwatching and their bets are right on, you don\u2019t have to ask them what they
\nthink the count is.  People who are good,
\nI would ask, \u201cHow much did you buy in for and how did you do?\u201d  That\u2019s really peripheral, but if they could
\nhandle that along with everything else they were fine.  Some people are really intelligent and can do
\neverything in the classroom.   You get
\nthem in a casino, and they\u2019re looking over their shoulder at who is watching,
\nand their hands are shaking when they put the bet out.  It\u2019s okay to shake at the beginning, but if
\nyou look like a frightened rabbit, who is going to buy that?  We would tell them to just play some more and
\nget more comfortable.  We tried to tell
\npeople what the casino environment is like, but it\u2019s hard to get that in a
\nclassroom.  <\/div>\n
\n            <\/div>\n
\nRWM: How do you know if people are honest?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: In the past when we recruited, we didn\u2019t have much
\nconcern about honesty.  What I looked for
\nwas, as you deal checkouts would players own up to their mistakes.  Or was there blame shifting?  You measure their character by the way they
\nbehave.  If you don\u2019t like a guy you can
\ngive him problems.  We had people we
\ndidn\u2019t want to pass, so we just made it impossible.  We had a couple people that I\u2019m convinced
\nstole money from us.  And they gave us
\nmany warning signs.  We were either too
\nstupid to see them, or we willfully ignored them.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Did you polygraph them?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: No, we just stopped playing with them.  One of these guys was married but was always
\ncarrying on with other women.  That
\nrubbed me the wrong way.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: If he\u2019ll cheat on his wife, why wouldn\u2019t he cheat you?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Right.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Do you have spotters go in to watch the BP?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Occasionally, but we don\u2019t really have the manpower to do
\nthat all the time.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Tommy\u2019s team has a rule against playing any hand-held
\ngames.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Yes, I spoke to him about that.  His attitude is that they are not good enough
\nto tell if they are getting cheated.  If
\nthey\u2019re not good enough\u2026 we\u2019re all part timers.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Did you guys have a similar rule?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Yeah.  There are
\nalso problems with those games because of the cut card effect and preferential
\nshuffling.  One thing about the MIT group
\n\u2013 it\u2019s very mechanical in its approach. 
\nPeople are trained to do something. 
\nWe have high standards for performance, and we check people out with
\nthose standards.  We have removed as much
\njudgment from the play as possible.   We
\nfound that when you put judgment into it, it becomes a slippery slope.  People start tipping, and it may be perfectly
\njustified, but then you get someone who lacks proper judgment and they piss
\naway the money.  It seemed to work better
\nwhen we said, no tipping unless it\u2019s out of your own pocket.  We\u2019ve changed and allow tipping now.<\/div>\n
\n            With ace
\nsequencing, you get the ace or you don\u2019t. 
\nBut then you get people who wreck their hands in order to catch the
\nace.  The last card comes out that they
\nbelieve is in front of the ace and suddenly they take no more hits.  So a player stands on hard seven.  So I\u2019m giving up 30% on a $100 bet.  Some people will do that.  They don\u2019t have any judgment about how much
\nthe hand is worth or how much heat might come down.  They just do what they think they ought to
\ndo.  But their conversion rate might be
\nhorrible.  You might fool yourself on the
\nsequence.  Was it seven of diamonds and
\neight of hearts?  Or was it seven of
\nhearts and the eight of diamonds?   Once
\nyou start to be unsure about the cards the possibilities explode and you can be
\nbetting into nothing.<\/div>\n
\n            We had a small
\ngroup of people on the west coast who were trained just to count cards.  We had one experienced player out here and
\nshe recruited a bunch of people, mostly from JPL.  She taught them to count, the MIT way.  Back east we had a lot of people who had been
\ncounting for a long time.  Many of them
\nwere already burned out and were looking for other methods of play that might
\navoid some heat.  Shuffle tracking was
\nsomething that we had done for many years, but the casinos had made the
\nshuffles more complicated.  Our success
\nwith those shuffles was mixed.  We never
\ndid much analysis on error rates.  There
\nare many ways you can make errors and how much does that cost you?  Boundary errors are really important when
\nyou\u2019re dealing with packets that are very small.  If your eyeballing skills aren\u2019t as good as
\nthey could be, you have other problems. 
\nThe east coast people were doing this shuffle tracking and ace
\nsequencing.  We had various methods of
\nputting a value on these games.   Our
\nsuccess with these so-called \u201cadvanced games\u201d was very mixed.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Do you go out on the road much?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Nah.  I\u2019ve played
\nin Mississippi and near Chicago.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Let\u2019s talk about disguises.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Disguises are a last resort.  We don\u2019t use them much.  I\u2019ve tried them occasionally but it\u2019s like a
\nbig joke.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Your Griffin and Biometrica pages have pictures of you
\ndressed as a woman.  How did that happen?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: The first time was in the Bahamas.  My teammates said they wouldn\u2019t let me play
\nunless I had a disguise.  What kind of
\ndisguise could I have?  I can\u2019t grow
\nfacial hair.  I did try a fake beard and
\nmustache once.  I had this big bushy wig
\nand huge beard.  My head was enormous,
\nand I\u2019m skinny anyway.  Customers who
\nwere playing just looked at me and laughed. 
\nSo one of my teammates said I should try being a woman.  My former girlfriend was on the trip, and
\nshe\u2019s 5\u2019 10\u201d.   She had stuff I could
\nwear.  She made me up and gave me a hat,
\ndress, pantyhose.  The other players said
\nit looked good but they were all laughing. 
\nI played like that but nobody said anything.  The casino people were totally oblivious.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: You tried this again in Atlantic City.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Yes, but this time I had a new girlfriend, and she
\nwasn\u2019t as skilled at making me into a woman. 
\nShe did have a wig for me, but the problem with the wig is it adds to my
\nheight, and I think I was wearing heels. 
\nSo I became this six-foot tall Asian woman.  There aren\u2019t any six-foot Asian women!   When I was sitting it was okay, but as soon
\nas I stood up people were like, \u201cWhoa.\u201d 
\nI was in the Taj, and this got written up in the Washington Post.  It just happened that an Asian woman sat down
\nnext to me.  She\u2019s all petite, and I look
\nat her hands, and they\u2019re just tiny. 
\nThen I look at my hands next to hers and I thought, \u201cOoo, not good.\u201d  I took my hands off the table.  It tuned out that when I was noticing this,
\nsurveillance was noticing the same thing, and they just busted up laughing.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How did this end up in the Washington Post?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: They sent out a reporter to do an article, the thrust of
\nwhich was that casinos bring scam artists and lowlifes to the community.  I ended up being the lead into this long
\nfeature piece in the Style section.  The
\nreporter talked to the surveillance people at the Taj.  They showed him the pictures of me.  I think the first phrase of the article was
\nsomething like, \u201cstriking from a distance,\u201d depicting this elegant Asian woman
\nplaying at the high limit tables.  Then
\nthey cut to the surveillance guys who are laughing and they say I\u2019m Johnny C.,
\nan infamous card counter.   The tone and
\ncontext were really smarmy, but the article was pretty accurate so I couldn\u2019t
\nreally say it was libel.<\/div>\n
\n            It must be
\nsuch a mundane existence in casinos, because when surveillance finds us, it\u2019s
\nthe most exciting thing for them.  It
\nmakes their day, if not their week or month. \n<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Have you played much out of the country?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I played in England, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary,
\nFrance, and the Caribbean.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Do any of them stick out as particularly good or bad
\nexperiences?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Austria has the worst games.  I was cheated in Prague.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How did they cheat?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: They short shoed me. A French guy owned the casino.  When I told other people about it they said,
\n\u201cYeah, that\u2019s pretty classic.\u201d  After
\nthis happened I was in Gambler\u2019s Book Club in Las Vegas and I was reading some
\npamphlet by Ken Uston.  It said, when
\nyou\u2019re in France be careful of the small casinos because they short shoe
\nyou.   [A short shoe is one in which tens
\nand aces have been removed.  This gives
\nthe casino a higher edge.]<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How long ago was this?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Maybe five years ago.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What did you do?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I was kind of stupid. 
\nI went to this casino and the limits were higher than the other
\nplaces.  The other places had maybe $100
\nlimits and this place had $500 or $1,000 limits.   We played a bit and broke even.  The casino offered us a dinner comp so we
\nwent to eat.  After dinner there was an
\nempty table.  The casino manager said,
\n\u201cThis table is just for you.  What limit
\nwould you like?\u201d  I only had about
\n$50,000 with me so I figured $2,000 was good enough.  The shuffle was very easy.  I start playing and the count goes up and up
\nand up.  At the end of the shoe it was
\n+15.  I tracked that and cut it to the
\nfront.  The count didn\u2019t go down.  At the end of that shoe it was +15
\nagain.  Now I\u2019m suspicious.  I do the same thing but I\u2019m not going to bet
\nit.  By the end of the third shoe I said,
\n\u201cI want to see those cards.\u201d  It sort of
\nsurprised me, but the casino manager said, \u201cOh sure.  No problem. 
\nWe have to take the cards over to the table in the back because we don\u2019t
\nwant to prevent other customers from playing.\u201d 
\nHe grabbed the cards and turned his back to me, and started walking to
\nthe other table.  I saw him furtively
\nreaching into his coat pocket and pulling out the cards to add to the
\nshoe.  I yelled, \u201cI want to see those
\ncards on top.\u201d  I started grabbing them
\nand he yelled, \u201cDon\u2019t touch the cards.\u201d  
\nHe put them down on the baccarat table and washed them.  The guy was very shaky afterwards.  I should have said, \u201cI want my money
\nback.\u201d  I didn\u2019t ask him.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM:  How much did
\nthey get you for?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: About $15,000.  I
\nknew I could beat this game.  Or, at
\nleast I thought I could.  So I continued
\nto play once all the cards were in the shoe. 
\nWell, then they were completely ruthless with the payoffs.  I caught a ton of mistakes, and they were
\nalways against me, even on obvious hands. 
\nI just didn\u2019t realize it at first. 
\nAfter two or three days of this it finally dawned on me, they were just
\nripping me off every chance they got.  If
\nyou try to play against someone who is ripping you off on the payoffs you can\u2019t
\nwin.  Especially if you try to have some
\nkind of act.  I finally got it when I
\ncaught about the 15th error in a session.  I said, \u201cYou mispaid the bet.  What is going on?\u201d  The dealer said, \u201cYou should be careful.\u201d<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What was the total loss at the end of all this?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: $40,000.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: That was an expensive lesson.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: It\u2019s a hard lesson to learn, and I\u2019m not sure I\u2019ve
\nlearned it.  Sure, if the dealer is
\nalways ripping you off, and there is never a mistake in your favor, then you
\ncan be pretty damn sure what is going on. \n<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Does being in Griffin affect you in foreign casinos?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Being in Griffin scares me when playing overseas.  If the casino has that information, and gives
\nit to law enforcement, they see those pictures and those kinds of descriptions
\nof blackjack players.  Their English may
\nnot be that good.  They just decide we
\nmust be criminals and deserve to be treated as such.  In a third world country being treated as
\nsuch is pretty brutal.  We had $62,000
\nstolen by the Bahamian police.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How did that happen?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: One of our players went down there with $50,000, and he
\nwon $12,000.  The casino found him in
\nGriffin and they wanted their money back or they would have him thrown in
\njail.  He said he had won the money fair
\nand square.  They called the Bahamian
\npolice.  The police said that card
\ncounting was illegal, and they didn\u2019t appreciate foreigners coming there and
\ntaking advantage of their poor casinos. 
\nSo they threw him in jail, which was like a dungeon.  There were rats running around, and he was in
\nthere with his wife.  The police told the
\ncasino manager, \u201cWe\u2019ll sweat it out of them.\u201d 
\nAfter three days our player said, \u201cOkay, we give up.\u201d  At that point the police realized they could
\njust keep their bankroll as well.  So
\nthey kept the entire $62,000.   We paid
\nsome Bahamian lawyer to get it back. 
\nThis happened seven years ago. 
\nThe last thing I heard was we won a judgment against the casino but we
\ncan\u2019t collect it.  This was at the
\nMarriott.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: There was a recent article in Wired about the MIT
\nteam.  [This article is an excerpt from
\nthe book, Bringing Down the House,<\/i> by
\nBen Mezrich.]  The article talks about a
\nplayer taking $250,000 on a plane to Vegas. 
\nWhen you were going from Boston to Vegas, how much cash would you take
\non the airplane?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Typically it would be $100,000.  There may have been situations where someone
\ntook a quarter million or more. 
\nEspecially coming back from Vegas. 
\nWe had one player bring over a million dollars back from Vegas on one
\ntrip.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: How did he carry it?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Just packed it in bricks, put it in his carry-on, and
\nbrought it home.  It\u2019s about the size of
\na pillow.  When it went through the xray
\nI guess they didn\u2019t think it was money. 
\nNot when it\u2019s that big.  Early on
\nwe did have problems going through airport security with cash.  They would open a bag and it was an amount of
\nmoney that would scare a lot of people. 
\nThey would call the airport police, or the state police, and you have a
\nplane to catch.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Did you have any money confiscated?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Sort of, but not really. 
\nI was going out to the west coast and had $300,000 on me.  I was traveling with this girl who had no
\nexperience, but she was supremely confident. 
\nI was in a hurry and I asked her to carry twenty or forty thousand.  It wasn\u2019t much but I had so much that I just
\ncouldn\u2019t fit it.  I went through airport
\nsecurity with no problem.   She got
\npulled aside.  She had put the money in a
\nmoney belt that had metal in it.  They
\nfound the money and they asked her to explain it.  She was a college student.  She started lying and said her grandfather
\ngave it to her for tuition.  It rang
\nfalse, so the state police came in and they called the DEA.  I\u2019m watching this but I didn\u2019t have a place
\nto put my stuff and I had all this money on me. 
\nI called the team and asked them to call the lawyers.  Then I went back and said, \u201cWhat\u2019s the
\nproblem?\u201d  After I told the trooper I was
\nwith her, he wanted to search my luggage again. 
\nThere was no money in the bags, but I said, \u201cI think I want a
\nlawyer.\u201d  As soon as I said that, I was
\nimmediately guilty.  He confiscated my
\nbags.  Our lawyer said this happens
\nfrequently.  They confiscate your stuff
\nand don\u2019t prosecute you for anything; they just keep it.  I think that is really corrupt.  It makes the DEA and other people that do
\nthis as bad as the criminals themselves. 
\nAnyway, the lawyers showed up within twenty minutes.  They told them we were just blackjack players.  It\u2019s so hard for them to believe.  How do you prove what you\u2019re telling them?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What do you do now? 
\nSince 9\/11 things have gotten much worse.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: We don\u2019t carry as much because our bank is smaller.  Also, our players are older so it\u2019s more believable
\nthat they would have a significant amount of money.   I talked to one player I know who says he
\nnever has any problems.  But, he has that
\nkind of money, and he looks like he\u2019s wealthy. 
\nHe goes through airport security with his Rolex watch and Halliburton
\nbriefcase with $80,000 in it.  They look
\nat it and say, \u201cNo problem.\u201d  He just
\nlooks like a high roller.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Does it help to carry chips?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: It helps, but it\u2019s not going to exonerate or absolve you
\nif they don\u2019t like the way you look.  
\nOur first incident was exactly that situation.  Someone had $80,000 in chips and cash in a
\npaper bag.   Security called the
\npolice.  We happened to have an assistant
\nDA with us.  She was the girlfriend of
\none of the players.  She spoke to the
\npolice and showed her ID so they let us go. 
\nShe was later reprimanded for undue use of her authority, and there was
\nan investigation into the incident.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Dealing with these large amounts of cash, do you ever
\nmisplace it or lose it?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: The guy who originally trained me left $125,000 in a
\nclassroom at MIT.  He was training all
\nthese people, maybe 40 players.  They
\nwould all meet in this classroom to do checkouts and practices and he\u2019d give
\nplayers money to take on trips.  He just
\nleft the money in the classroom.  The janitor
\nfound it and gave it to MIT.   They
\nsuddenly got very lawyerly.  \u201cHow do we
\nknow the money is your, and what\u2019s it doing in our classroom?\u201d  They started calling the three letter
\nagencies.  We got the money back fairly
\ncheaply.  I think it cost three or four
\nthousand for the lawyers.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: I have a story about that. When John was going to move
\nto California I went back to help him pack and clean out his apartment.  The first night I was sitting at his
\ncluttered desk.  On the desk was a
\njar.  I opened it up and saw a bunch of
\nchips.  I said, \u201cOh, this is where you
\nkeep your chips.\u201d  He said, \u201cWhat, I have
\nchips there?\u201d  I pulled it out and it was
\n$6,000.  I thought this was a fluke.  Then I was cleaning out the closet and I saw
\na dirty, old, fanny pack in the corner. 
\nI was going to throw it out, but I opened it first and found $20,000 in
\ntraveler\u2019s checks.   I said, \u201cJohn, you
\nhave $20,000 in traveler\u2019s checks here.\u201d 
\nHe said, \u201cI do?\u201d   Next, there
\nwere all these boxes full of junk.  I
\ntold him we should go through the boxes and throw out the stuff he didn\u2019t need
\nrather than shipping them to California. 
\nHe started going through the boxes and found an envelope.  He ran out and hugged me and said, \u201cPlease,
\nplease, don\u2019t tell anybody.  This is bad
\neven for me.\u201d  I sad, \u201cWhat is it?\u201d  It was $120,000 in traveler\u2019s checks.  I have never met anyone like this.  I said, \u201cAre you insane?\u201d   He said, \u201cYou aren\u2019t going to find any
\nmore.  This is it for sure.\u201d  The last day I opened a big box and found
\n$16,000 or $18,000 in Atlantic City chips. 
\nOver the course of two weeks I found $165,000 that he didn\u2019t know he
\nhad.  He said he had a slight feeling he
\nwas a little short.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I had another incident. 
\nI had finally moved to a nice apartment after living in these student
\nhovels for years.  I went on a trip to
\nVegas for two weeks.  While I was gone
\nthe hose to my washer exploded and flooded my apartment.  The water started going into the units
\nbeneath mine.  The woman downstairs
\ncalled the fire department, and they couldn\u2019t get in my unit so they called the
\npolice.  The police broke in.  I had a green felt on my kitchen table with
\nchips and cards.  They turned off the
\nwater, and I guess they started looking around. 
\nIn my bedroom they found a bunch of fake IDs I had made.  Why were the police in my bedroom?  If you read the police report it said they
\nwere attempting to locate the owner to inform him of the situation.   I don\u2019t believe any of it, but how can I
\nprove it.  Then they found $100,000. <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: You didn\u2019t worry about leaving $100,000 in cash in you
\napartment while being gone for two weeks?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: It didn\u2019t have a doorman but it was a nice
\nbuilding.  I wasn\u2019t concerned.  So the police ransacked my place.  They threw everything off the shelves and
\nemptied all the drawers.  I got home
\nabout five days later.  The door was
\npadlocked and I could see the mess through a hole in the door.  When the neighbor across the hall told me
\nthere were ten cops in my apartment, I knew they had found the money, so I
\ncalled up the lawyers.  They told me not
\nto stay there and they said they would call the police in the morning and let
\nthem know that I would go turn myself in. 
\nI went to the station and got fingerprinted and photographed.  They charged me with having the fake
\nIDs.  They were investigating whether I
\nwas involved in some Asian gang.  I was
\nasking about my fourth amendment rights. 
\nThe lawyers said that basically they don\u2019t exist anymore.  Eventually I got my money back and it cost
\n$10,000 for the lawyers.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Has 9\/11 caused big problems for blackjack players?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: It certainly seems like it should, but I haven\u2019t heard
\nof any specific incidents.  People seem
\nto be taking more precautions to avoid trouble.   I saw John Ashcroft on CNN saying he wanted
\nto make transporting $10,000 a felony. 
\nHe may not get that but it\u2019s on the horizon.  That\u2019s pretty scary.   <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Have you been physically abused in the casinos?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: The casinos can kind of do whatever they want.  In Atlantic City they are more regulated so
\nthey feel more constrained about doing things. 
\nIn Las Vegas, the Venetian, in particular, is filled with Atlantic City
\npeople who have had these constraints removed.    I think they have gone overboard in
\nincidents that happened to Laurie and others. 
\nLaurie was handcuffed and dragged in the back room.  There really is no need.  All they have to do is say they don\u2019t want us
\nto play.   I suppose there are some people
\nwho will put up an argument but if someone tells me they know who I am I
\nleave.  In the Rio I was playing and they
\nrecognized me.  Some boss backed me
\noff.  I was like, \u201cOkay I\u2019m
\nleaving.\u201d  He had some mad-dog security
\nguard with him who looked like Wilford Brimley. 
\nI didn\u2019t see him, I guess because he was so short.  He grabbed me by the arm and I just started
\nto walk away.  The next thing I know the
\nlittle security guard attacks me and throws me up against the wall.  I was just shocked.  He started ranting that I was guilty.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Guilty of what?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: He just said, \u201cYou\u2019re guilty, guilty as hell.\u201d  He pushed me around and threatened me.  He said, \u201cIf I see you again you won\u2019t have a
\nface.\u201d  Something like that.  Then he told me to leave, which is what I was
\ntrying to do when he grabbed me.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Did you contact a lawyer?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I called a couple lawyers but they said they would look
\ninto it for a retainer but weren\u2019t interested in handling it on a contingency
\nbasis.  I didn\u2019t call Gaming because my
\nexperience with Gaming is that they treat you like a criminal.  At any major casino the agents suck up to the
\nexecutives when they show up.  And
\nyou?  Who are you?  I want to see your ID, I want this, I want
\nthat, are you in the book?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: You called gaming in the past?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: The main experience I had with Gaming was when I had
\n$91,000 in Dunes chips I wanted to cash out. 
\nThe Dunes wouldn\u2019t cash them so I called Gaming.   They weren\u2019t nasty really but it was such a
\npain in the ass.  They wanted to know who
\nI was, and all kinds of information about me, as if that mattered.  I can see if the chips were stolen but the
\nDunes hadn\u2019t had a theft.  They just
\nrefused to cash them because they were harassing me.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Two of the very high profile court cases of blackjack
\nplayers were people on your team.  The
\ncase at the Monte Carlo was a good result, but the case at Caesars was quite a
\nterrible result.  <\/b><\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: The Caesars result I think is why we can\u2019t get adequate
\nlegal representation.  The lawyers see
\nthat we had a slam dunk case and got an award of $10,000.  They don\u2019t want those cases.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Do you think this was bad lawyering, or the Nevada
\ncourts system that did you in?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I don\u2019t know.  I
\nwasn\u2019t there, and I haven\u2019t seen the court transcripts.  My guess is our lawyer represented our player
\nas this poor medical student who was making money playing for this group and he
\ndeserved something for his abuse.  How
\nmuch is $10,000 for a student?  Maybe the
\njury thought that was a good amount.  I
\nthink they were ignorant of what a reasonable damage award might be.  What is an appropriate award?  In this case, Caesars makes half a million
\ndollars a day, every day.  Is it
\nunreasonable to take one day\u2019s pay from them? 
\nIf you beat up someone wouldn\u2019t you deserve to be thrown in jail for a
\nday and lose one day\u2019s pay?  If the award
\nhad been half a million dollars all the lawyers would be jumping on the
\nbandwagon to represent us.  And the
\ncasinos wouldn\u2019t be so cavalier about mistreating us.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Have you branched out to other games?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I\u2019ve played some other games a bit and made small
\namounts of money, but I haven\u2019t really exploited anything the way I
\nshould.  I feel disappointed about
\nthat.  When players split off because
\nthey wanted their own money to grow faster, I felt they were very short
\nsighted.  In any business you shoot for
\nhaving more money so you can grow.  In
\nblackjack your bankroll gets too big and you can\u2019t really use it.  It doesn\u2019t mean you can\u2019t use it to branch
\ninto other things.  For example, CORE
\n[another team] went into banking in California. 
\nIf you start out with a million-dollar bank and make it grow you can end
\nup with tens of millions.  I think we
\nreally passed up that kind of opportunity. 
\nWe could have gone into many things. 
\nWe certainly had the brains and talent to investigate these other
\nthings.  But our selfishness stopped
\nus.  Also, in academia, people always
\nattack the new idea, that which hasn\u2019t been done before.  It might be intellectually rigorous, but it
\ncertainly isn\u2019t enterprising.  <\/i>One thing I really feel we should have
\ndone when we made a lot of money was earmark some of it for research and
\ndevelopment.  I argued for that, but
\npeople felt I was trying to take money out of their pockets.  Then we had some bad experiences with
\nit.  We did earmark a small amount of
\nmoney for some things, but it was poorly managed, and we ended up spending
\nmoney on stuff that was useless.  <\/div>\n
\n            I went to a
\nblackjack friend\u2019s wedding and it was a big eye-opener.  I talked to people who had made tons of money
\ndoing other things.  These are guys who
\nhave made tens and hundreds of millions. \n<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Do you still have this desire to have a big team out
\nthere, rather than going on trips with three or four of you?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC:  Right now I don\u2019t
\nfeel a big team is appropriate.  But
\nplaying with a few people, though amusing, certainly isn\u2019t the big time.  Instead I\u2019d like to get involved in some
\nother games with more potential. <\/div>\n
\n            <\/div>\n
\nRWM: What would you say to the guy out there in Peoria who
\nhas studied the books, learned to count cards, and wants to become a
\nprofessional blackjack player.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I would not be very optimistic about it.  You can make some money, but making it a
\nprofession is tough.  Most of the players
\nwho are successful had initial success. 
\nThey were lucky.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: You mean they caught a good fluctuation when they first
\nstarted?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: Yes.  Then they
\ngot better and adapted.  If you have
\nenough good experience behind you, then you can withstand the bad stuff. There
\nare a lot of attractive aspects to playing if you\u2019re betting enough to get
\ncomped.  Even if you don\u2019t get comped
\nblackjack is a cool thing to do.  You set
\nyour own hours.  You are your own
\nboss.  I think most people don\u2019t analyze
\nhow much their game is worth.  It\u2019s hard
\nbecause the parameters aren\u2019t known until you check out your own specific
\nsituation.  You might run simulations and
\nfind out you expect to earn $20 an hour. 
\nIf you\u2019re a student that might be attractive, but you have
\nfluctuations.  $20 an hour is probably
\n$10 on a sure thing. Also, <\/i>simulations
\ngive you the numbers if you don\u2019t make any mistakes.  People who are just starting are going to
\nmake mistakes.  In The Color of Money<\/i>, Paul Newman says, \u201cMoney won is twice as sweet
\nas money earned.\u201d  That has to be true. <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What would you tell that person to do?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: He should try to team up with other players.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: Being part of a blackjack team taught me a lot of things.  It\u2019s like a small corporation and when I got
\nto business school I realized I had learned a lot.  For someone fresh out of college this can be
\na great experience.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: There is a lot of stuff in blackjack that is useful in
\nother aspects of your life.  Analyzing a
\ngame and then putting out the money requires brains and courage.  Running a team requires presence and an
\nability to deal with people. 
\nWithstanding negative fluctuations requires confidence and
\nperseverance.  I know quite a number of
\nwealthy people who used to play blackjack. <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What gave you the idea to analyze Pai Gow?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: I went to UNLV and was looking at papers in their
\nspecial collection on gambling.  I found
\nan analysis by John Gwynn on Pai Gow. 
\nThen I verified it and came up with a strategy to beat it.  It\u2019s a very complicated strategy, ten times
\nharder than basic strategy for blackjack. 
\nIt\u2019s not obvious because the tiles have funny rankings.  You would never be able to come up with it
\nfrom first principles.  I came up with a
\nstrategy, and then found out that a former teammate, who was then at Microsoft,
\nhad come up with a set or rules for that strategy.  I called him and told him my idea.  He had written a program that would test you
\non the optimal strategy.  If you can play
\n500 hands without making a mistake, you\u2019re good enough to play.  I spent a couple weeks at his place, and then
\nI played 500 or 700 hands without a mistake. 
\nI thought I was good enough. 
\nWell, yes and no.  I was good
\nenough to set the hands, but not good enough to check the payoffs.  The dealers flip the tiles and pay or take
\nreally fast.  It\u2019s hard to tell if you
\nwon or lost.  I was playing and doing
\nokay, but I didn\u2019t enjoy the environment. 
\nI was looking for any excuse not to play.  Then I ran into a buzz saw at a card room
\nnear San Francisco.  I was losing pretty
\nbig and finally won a hand.  I didn\u2019t tip
\nthe dealer since I was still losing a lot. 
\nAfter that I think they ripped me off every chance they could.  If I won they just didn\u2019t pay me.  On one round I thought I won and they didn\u2019t
\npay me and I sort of meekly objected. 
\nAfter that they all started betting it up on me.  I lost $20,000 and decided I wasn\u2019t good
\nenough to catch the cheating, and I didn\u2019t enjoy playing so I gave it up.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What books do you take with you on a blackjack trip?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC:  I take the International Casino Guide<\/i> or the American Casino Guide<\/i> depending on
\nwhether I\u2019m traveling overseas or in the U.S. 
\nTommy Hyland turned me onto that. I was in the Huntington Press offices
\nand talking to Tommy on my cell phone and he said, \u201cHey, can you pick me up a
\ncopy of the American Casino Guide<\/i>?\u201d  I picked it up and said, \u201cI better get one of
\nthese for me too.\u201d  I take Basic Blackjack<\/i>, because it covers most
\nweird rules you might run into, and I take Beyond
\nCounting<\/i>.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: What do your parents think of your profession?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: My mom wants me to buy a
\nRadio Shack.  Whenever we go in one she
\nsays, \u201cYou should own one of these stores. 
\nYou know so much about all this stuff.\u201d<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC:  His mother has a
\nmasters in chemical engineering and his dad is a PhD in chemical
\nengineering.  His brother and sister both
\nhave doctorates.   His parents don\u2019t
\nunderstand why he plays.  <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: So you\u2019re the black sheep of
\nthe family.<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: That\u2019s right. My sister went
\nto Stanford and Harvard and she\u2019s an orthodontist.  When she was a student she wanted to be an
\northodontist, ophthalmologist, or endocrinologist, because they didn\u2019t have
\nmajor emergencies and have to show up at two in the morning.   Now\u2026<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nLC: His dad visited her and said, \u201cOh, she has such a hard
\nlife.  She owns her own clinic, she has
\nto do the books and deal with the personalities.  She has two kids.  It\u2019s a very tough life.  You and John have it so easy.\u201d   I said, \u201cDad, that\u2019s the point.  John has plenty of money, he spends a lot of
\ntime with our son, and he has the respect of his peers.  We have a great life.\u201d <\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nRWM: Any last thoughts?<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n
\nJC: One thing I think I’d like to add is what kind of threat
\nthe MIT team really is to the casinos. Despite our vaunted reputation, we
\nreally haven’t taken that much money out. A little more than $10 million is my
\nguess. That might sound like a lot but considering the amount of time [over 20
\nyears] and number of people it’s not particularly impressive. Over the years,
\nthe average yearly income of a blackjack player from our group has been
\n$25,000.  Granted, it’s part time work,
\nbut it’s not that profitable really. There have got to be a hundred other
\nthings casinos spend more money on. Measured from a cost\/benefit standpoint,
\ntheir countermeasures are ridiculous. They probably spend 10 times as much
\nmoney to stop us compared to what they’d ever lose. <\/div>\n
\nHere’s an analogy. The casinos buy
\na two-foot thick metal door to protect their house, when all we do is check to
\nsee whether the door is locked. If we’re really desperate we check for open
\nwindows, but we’ve gotten hurt in the past trying to climb in, so we tend to
\navoid them. It seems they think we’re super ninjas who can walk off with all
\ntheir money. Even the best of us are far from that. <\/div>\n
\nIf some enlightened casino
\nexecutive were to look upon us as an advertising opportunity instead of some
\nevil group of criminals, I’m sure the casino would be better off. The most
\nprofitable casinos take our action the best. 
\nWhy don’t they trumpet big wins at blackjack from players they think are
\nwinners?  They’d probably get back ten
\ntimes as much from the civilians who want to repeat that.  This is the reason blackjack became so
\npopular to begin with. In general casinos that spend a lot of money on card
\ncounter catchers just drive away the legitimate suckers.  Players feel the paranoia and suspicion and
\ntake a hike. In the end by being afraid of the .1% of players who can beat
\nthem, they scare away most of the big money.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n
\n<\/div>\n\"Facebook\"<\/a>\"twitter\"<\/a>\"youtube\"<\/a>\"instagram\"<\/a>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

This interview was conducted in 2002 The history of blackjack has many roots at MIT.   Ed Thorp, author of Beat the Dealer, did his original computer analysis at MIT on their computer.  When Resorts International opened in 1978 a group of MIT students combined forces to attack the casino, and the \u201cMIT Team\u201d was born.  […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":14,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_exactmetrics_skip_tracking":false,"_exactmetrics_sitenote_active":false,"_exactmetrics_sitenote_note":"","_exactmetrics_sitenote_category":0,"spay_email":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_is_tweetstorm":false},"categories":[29,2,3],"tags":[54,56,85,98],"yoast_head":"\nMy interview with John & Laurie C. - MIT Blackjack team - Gambling With An Edge<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/gambling-with-an-edge\/my-interview-with-john-laurie-c-mi\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"My interview with John & Laurie C. - 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