Immediately after one of my classes at the South Point, a man, “Joe,” came up to me and asked if I would mentor him in becoming a professional video poker player. He told me he had plenty of bankroll and wanted to turbocharge his learning process. He had heard that I would do private consulting for $250 an hour with a two-hour minimum and that did not present a problem for him.
I had another engagement after class, so we scheduled a lunch date for the near future. Although I have food comps at casinos, I preferred having the conversation at a local Applebee’s where the chances of being overheard by other players was far less. I don’t pay retail for food in Vegas very often, but this was one of those times.
In the time before I met with Joe, I tried to figure out what kind of person I would be willing to mentor. Assuming he had the bankroll, I figured the main criteria were:
a. His personality was acceptable to me. This isn’t a particularly high bar to cross, but there are a few people I just don’t enjoy hanging out with. I didn’t want a long-term relationship with somebody like that.
b. He was smart enough. Video poker is applied math. Not everybody is capable of learning it at a high level.
c. He had some history of success at the game and could study on his own. When I’m consulting with somebody two hours at a time, I don’t really care how good they are when they come to me. I’ll spend the two hours doing my best to improve their skill and knowledge level. But a mentoring relationship is a longer-term affair and spending dozens of hours while moving somebody from beginner to intermediate isn’t how I want to spend my time.
Okay. After Joe and I ordered lunch, I asked him where he lived and how he got his bankroll. I had spoken to Joe a few times previously and he passed the personality test, such as it is. He had sent me a number of emails over the past few years with questions and/or suggestions for the Gambling with an Edge radio show. These emails led me to believe he was smart enough to succeed at this.
Joe told me he was 49 years old, lived on the East Coast, and had recently inherited more than $2 million. He planned to retire from the Air Force Reserve in a few months and was looking at how he wanted to spend the rest of his life.
Joe had listened to a number of the radio shows and it really sounded like I enjoyed my life more than he enjoyed his. Plus, he had read my Million Dollar Video Poker autobiography and was fascinated with the life of a gambler. He decided he wanted to invest a portion of his inheritance, maybe $200,000, to see if he had the aptitude to maybe be the next Bob Dancer.
I asked him how many of the Winner’s Guides he had closely studied. He told me he had purchased a set but had yet to open them up. I asked him how much time he had spent with a computer program such as Video Poker for Winners. He told me he hadn’t purchased a copy of that yet but it was next on his list.
I told him he wasn’t ready for mentoring yet. In the next six months, I suggested he learn two games at the professional level — perhaps Jacks or Better and NSU Deuces Wild. Using the Winner’s Guides and the software, this wasn’t such a formidable task. But neither was it a trivial one.
Then, I wanted him to spend at least two weeks straight in Las Vegas or another casino city gambling 30 hours a week. At the end of that, if he still wanted me to mentor him, he knew how to get in touch with me. I would give him a test on the two games, and if he knew the games at a high level, we could revisit the mentoring idea.
Joe was in love with the idea of being a gambler, but he hadn’t had any actual experience. It’s hard work to get to the professional level at one game — let alone two. Playing 60 hours will turn out to be a boring experience for many people.
Video poker is a grind-it-out affair. It’s one thing to be fascinated by what appears to be a glamorous life. It’s another thing entirely to go through the process of getting good at some games and then successfully playing those games for 60 hours without going totally bonkers.
Can Joe do this?
I don’t know. If he can’t, he was never going to be a success at gambling anyway. If he can master two games and still be interested in being mentored after some real-life experience, then at least he will be going into this with his eyes wide open rather than looking through the rose-colored glasses he seems to be wearing today.
On one of our radio shows, Richard Munchkin told us that he periodically gets these kinds of requests from people wishing to learn blackjack. Richard tells them to learn basic strategy completely for four different games — i.e. with or without standing on soft 17 and with or without the ability to double after splitting. Once they know all four of these basic strategies, come back and see him again.
Richard tells me he’s never had somebody come back to him with these four strategies memorized.
I guess Richard’s experience influenced how I dealt with Joe. The task I gave Joe is more difficult than learning four basic strategies — each of which is more than 90% identical with the others. Jacks or Better and Deuces Wild are games very different from each other.
Still, if Joe passes this test, he’ll be a worthy student and I won’t mind at all working with him.
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I enjoyed this week’s column as it is the first time I have read about someone who has actually utilized your private consulting services. I have only heard about the availability in the past, and I figured it would be for those who are absolutely serious; the initial probing to “Joe” is a good litmus test to see if he has the right frame of mind. The resources Video Poker for Winners and the Winners Guide provide adequate direction for my lesser needs.
Although it takes much effort to grasp the strategy of a video poker game variant, learning the two games is only going to be the tip of the iceberg of what Joe needs to do next to be a professional player. I would be interested to hear if “Joe” does master the strategy and follows up for another session with you.
Well done Bob regarding this fellow. An intelligent approach and a modest requirement for a known skill base so this has a chance of possibly succeeding.
My theory is that anyone willing to do the work (learn strategies, put in the time, etc) won’t need a mentor. Through experience, they will figure things out on their own, and they will learn by exchanging information with other professionals they meet along the way. I get the sense that most people looking for a mentor are looking for a shortcut to success which doesn’t exist.
Maybe.
Yes you have to do the work. The more successful professionals you can talk to, the better. It’s common sense that if you can get all the relevant information for free, it’s not very efficient to pay for it.
Joe,however does not strike me as the kind of guy to networks well. For him, mentoring might be a good idea. There are a lot of things I just don’t write about — and most pros don’t write about anything — but I might share some of these things with a student.
Back in graduate school, we had faculty advisors to help point the way. It is very useful to speak to somebody who has gone down a similar path previously. Some people get more value out of this kind of thing than others.
You can learn the games on your own, but that’s only half the battle. You also need to know how to calculate the EV of promotions when not all relevant data is known, how to get ambiguous rules interpreted in a way that favors you, how to find or create good plays that aren’t generally known, and how to keep the casinos from cutting you off. Math is math, but the other information isn’t freely available and changes frequently, $250/hr is a bargain for instruction in those topics
He should also know that compared to the life of a professional VP player, manning a toll booth or folding t-shirts for a living is an action-packed, glamorous job. You also have to have a cast-iron butt and a back that won’t disintegrate from sitting in a slot machine chair for dozens of hours a week.
Oh, and you have to breathe air that consists of 78% nitrogen, 10% oxygen, and 12% cigarette smoke. Again, for hours on end.
Whee!
Great article…it answers a lot of questions I’ve had for some time. Primarily, I’ve wondered what kind of person voluntarily eats at Applebee’s. The answer is no surprise!
Yeow!
Over the years I have consulted with Bob a few times. Although the comments are correct I have found a different value in his time. I have learned a few games through winner guides, Video Poker for Winners, Wizard of Odds website, and others. I have learned to evaluate EV on promotions, contests, bounce back, comps, and other freebies. There are some things that get picked up through networking, and some things that are kept secrets. I live by the motto “you don’t know what you don’t know”. For me understanding levels to play to maximize mailers, where not to play too much, how to best spend your points, trick to not wearing out your welcome, and how to exchange idea’s to further the cause. I believe paying the kind of information that speeds up the learning process is money well spent!
“Primarily, I’ve wondered what kind of person voluntarily eats at Applebee’s. The answer is no surprise!”
My late mother, who was left-handed, called a statement like this a “left-handed compliment.” They were always a bit ambiguous, but you knew for sure that there was some negative insinuation in there somewhere.
I know I was the target here — but I still can appreciate a nicely phrased left-handed compliment. Well done!
My biggest concern is that the guy has a bankroll of that size already. That makes it tough to do all the little things in the learning process that build a good basic foundation. Analyzing plays and calculating EV. Scouting for good opportunities etc. These are necessities for the player trying to build a bankroll but Joe doesn’t have those concerns. The urgency to stay up all night and learn a new strategy due to a promo going off the next day just is not there. Plenty of successful players are beyond those stages but they almost all went through that process. You have to have the “plus EV disease” and you contract that condition as you develop.
Your wrong, there is 21% oxygen in the atmosphere you breath.
Frank B’s take on this is excellent and one I hadn’t considered before his post. I plan to riff on it on next week’s radio show, which features 2004 WSOP main event winner Greg Raymer.
I think he meant inside the casino. Not outside of it.
You are so right! There are many smart people out there, but are they ready for the physical rigors that the body goes through for playing VP professionally? I just got back from a successful trip to Vegas playing VP. $1500 profit on an investment of $500. Had to really pay attention to neck and back. Hint: put the chair in lowest possible position.
I have found that there a lot of pro wannabes. First question i ask people is that do they want to be a pro or just to break even cash wise and just enjoy the comps. It is very easy to break even in las vegas. It is very hard to make the median income gambling.
I mainly play live poker but also enjoy video poker and consider myself a pro at live poker and video poker helps me to determine winning hand possibilities. I mention this as many people do not understand what being a pro at gambling actually means. It’s hard work only unless you love doing it. That was rule number one. Rule two is that being a pro does not mean you always win. Rule three is that it does mean you can make a decent living at it.
So as this article is concerned, Joe does not need to make a decent living, Joe is infatuated, not in love with it and therefore it would be hard work for him, and I doubt he would have the fortitude to withstand the losing streaks that eventually come and dishearten even the best.
So Bob, your test is a good beginning but even if Joe completes the test to your satisfaction, I believe you would not enjoy the road ahead with this guy.