{"id":123174,"date":"2022-09-14T15:59:15","date_gmt":"2022-09-14T22:59:15","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/gambling-with-an-edge\/?page_id=123174"},"modified":"2024-01-25T13:04:52","modified_gmt":"2024-01-25T21:04:52","slug":"interview-with-bob-nersesian-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/blog\/interview-with-bob-nersesian-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview with Bob Nersesian"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
An Attorney Fights Casino Abuse of Professional Gamblers in the Nevada Courts and<\/strong>\u00a0Wins<\/em><\/h5>\n\n\n\n

by Richard W. Munchkin
(From\u00a0Blackjack Forum<\/em>\u00a0XXII #4, Winter 2002\/03)
\u00a9 Blackjack Forum 2003<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

[Bob Nersesian is a partner in the Las Vegas law firm of Nersesian & Sankiewicz. He specializes in representing players in lawsuits against casinos. Richard W. Munchkin is a member of the Blackjack Hall of Fame and the author of\u00a0Gambling Wizards: Conversations with the World’s Greatest Gamblers<\/a>.]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: Why is it that attorneys don\u2019t want to take cases in which card counters have been manhandled by casinos?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: Number one, there isn\u2019t enough money in those cases. Number two, and this is really bizarre to me, people in our community don\u2019t understand that the casinos are invading someone\u2019s rights when a card counter is back roomed or handcuffed. I can\u2019t tell you how many times I\u2019ve talked with other attorneys about this stuff and the reaction I get is: \u201cWell for god sakes, he was counting cards. What do you expect them to do?\u201d My answer is, \u201cI expect them to follow the law, not falsely imprison the guy, not hold him out there and walk him through the casino and embarrass him in front of the world.\u201dThe law says that if they suspect him of a felony or if he is suspected of committing a misdemeanor on premises, they can detain him. It does not say they can detain him because he is winning, and that is what they are doing. The public accepts that, and most of the lawyers do, too. Across this country professional gamblers are vilified as far as perceptions are concerned. What we are faced with is a private company who says, \u201cWe don\u2019t like what you\u2019re doing. You\u2019re hurting us, so we are going to get back at you.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The general perspective when I approach other lawyers and upper management of casinos about counters being handcuffed, which does occur regularly, they are as aghast as I am. The policy has been changed, and been put out in writing at some properties, after lawsuits that I\u2019ve been involved in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: That\u2019s good to hear.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: They know they can\u2019t do that. I\u2019m giving the upper management some credit here. It\u2019s the way business works. They put out a dictate that says, \u201cWe\u2019re supposed to make money.\u201d Then you get down to the functionary level where they don\u2019t deal with management decisions or the overall policy decisions. They just get the directive, \u201cYour job is to make sure we make money.\u201d They don\u2019t know the ins and outs and niceties about it.The next thing you know they are handcuffing honest people. When the upper management finds out about that, they are pretty straightforward about changing their policies and seeing that it doesn\u2019t happen again. Historically, few lawyers have been willing to sue, and nothing happens because of it. The casino management isn\u2019t even aware there is a problem.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: What is a case worth when a card counter is handcuffed and maybe pushed around?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: I don\u2019t want to put down hard numbers, but the patron generally walks away with $5,000 – $15,000. That is provided all the i\u2019s are dotted and t\u2019s are crossed. What I mean by that is there aren\u2019t other reasons for what happened.The story that comes from my client in the first place is very rarely the story that you can see from the facts once things develop. For example, someone might assume they were back roomed for card counting, when in actuality they were back roomed because the casino suspects them of using a counting device. If that is the suspicion, and it\u2019s arguably supportable, the detention can be found appropriate.There are usually videos of that back room, and the cases where I have been successful usually show the casino security lambasting my client and stating, \u201cWe saw you in the book. We know you\u2019re a card counter. We don\u2019t want your business.\u201d The client is calmly standing there saying, \u201cI told you outside that I didn\u2019t want to come back here. Put away that camera. You are not going to take my picture. You have no business holding me here. You can ask me to leave. You could have done that out in the casino. Let me out right now.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: Is that what someone should do if detained?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: First inform them firmly, but not physically, that you have no desire to accompany them anywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: Should you attempt to walk to the door?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: Your call. I\u2019ve had it both ways. Firmly state, \u201cIf you want to throw me out, tell me I\u2019m 86\u2019ed or trespass me. Do it now and do it quickly, because I intend to walk out that door.\u201d If they say, \u201cYou\u2019re not going,\u201d or \u201cYou have to come with us,\u201d don\u2019t fight them, because they may beat the living daylights out of you.Do I want to see that kind of lawsuit? Not really. You get hurt on those. If they have determined that they are taking you to the back room, they will probably do whatever it takes to restrain you. Your firm statement that you desire to leave and they should not take you back there is all that is needed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: Unfortunately, the surveillance tapes don\u2019t have audio.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: No, they don\u2019t. Once you get in the security office, say it again. That room is recorded with audio.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I want to give you an example of the way the attorneys here look at this stuff. I have a case going to trial on the 23rd. I\u2019m suing a Gaming agent for what he did to a card counter. The court originally dismissed the action. This card counter spent a whole night in jail. He didn\u2019t do anything illegal.When the court dismissed it, I had to go to the Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, and that court reversed the dismissal. Now we have a judgment of liability. I am $80,000 into this case. What do my friends who are lawyers think when I describe the events to them? The guy spent a night in jail. He has never been arrested in his life. He is a wonderful father of two.The question to me is, \u201cWhat was he doing?\u201d He was counting cards. When I ask them what they think it is worth, they tell me, maybe $2,000. I ask, \u201cWhy only $2,000?\u201d I was talking to two lawyers just yesterday and they said, \u201cBecause he was a card counter.\u201d I said, \u201cSo, that\u2019s legal.\u201d They said, \u201cIt might be legal but it doesn\u2019t garner any sympathy.\u201dThere might be some truth to that. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a $2,000 case. If it ends up being a $2,000 case, so be it. I still proved my point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: What was their excuse for keeping him in jail?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: He was actually arrested because he refused to give this cop his name.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

At the same time I am trying to sue six other Gaming agents. The courts keep throwing them out. I\u2019m going to take these cases to the Nevada Supreme Court. If that doesn\u2019t work, I will try for the United States Supreme Court.I can\u2019t believe what these police officers think they are allowed to do. In one instance, and this one blows my mind, I have a client who plays video poker. He found a machine that had an edge and he played the heck out of it. It turned out the machine was misprogrammed. After he won on the machine, two police officers held him in custody for well over an hour and a half, and repeatedly requested that he return the money before he could leave, or alternatively go to jail. He did not do anything illegal.Here you have the Nevada State Police acting as collection agents for casinos. Isn\u2019t that special?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: Nevada is a very special place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: That one will be going to the Supreme Court for darn sure. Are they going to confirm the court throwing it out? They might. But I have been very impressed with the Gaming Control Board itself and the Supreme Court on gaming issues. Those three guys who make the big decisions. Or, the Nevada Supreme Court. The games tend to go out the window, and they are very judicious, both the Board, and the Supreme Court, about applying the law.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: Really?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: Yes. You hear people say that they are rubber stamps for the casinos\u2014not true. From what I can see, at the agent level, those guys seem to have a perspective that they\u2019re working for the casinos. However, the Supreme Court and the Gaming Control Board seem very guarded about their perspective, and that they are working for Nevada. That includes the taxpayers and the people who play in the casinos, as well as the properties.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You might be familiar with another case I handled, which happened at another casino. There was a programming error on a 50-cent video poker machine. A progressive jackpot for four of a kind, which would normally pay $250, instead paid $100,000. My client hit it.A Gaming agent, in a throwaway off-the-cuff opinion, effectively stated, \u201cThere is no liability here on behalf of the casino. The patron loses.\u201d The Gaming Control Board unanimously held that the casino had to pay. You see the distinction? The Board recognizes that the integrity of our system is reliant upon expectations being met. That sure was no rubber stamp decision for the casino.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: If it were a PPE [Park Place Entertainment] or MGM\/Mirage property, do you think the decision would have been the same?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: Yes, in my opinion that would not make a difference. You see some similarities in this case with the other slot case where the agents held him and tried to get him to give back the money.One thing that is most curious is the video of that incident. The police officers were citing the Nevada tax base, and implying that injury to that tax base was something they weren\u2019t going to allow to happen. If you take that in context, and expand it out to its logical conclusion, what they are saying is, \u201cWe will not allow casinos to lose in this state.\u201d There is a voiced attitude of the agents that patrons have to deal with every day.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I have a client who was back roomed and we tried very hard to get Metro to prosecute the casino for false imprisonment. We showed up at the station and requested they take a report. They wouldn\u2019t take a report. I actually spoke to a police officer who said to me, \u201cWell, he was card counting. Of course they put him in the back room. That\u2019s cheating.\u201dThis is a police officer in the state of Nevada who thinks it is cheating to count cards. No, sorry, the Supreme Court of Nevada has said three times it is not cheating. Reason tells you it\u2019s not cheating. Maybe so, but the guy on the street doesn\u2019t view a professional gambler with any sympathy. It might be jealousy. Whatever the rational might be, there just isn\u2019t a depth of sympathy for card counters and other legal advantage players.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

If the cop on the street thinks that is the case, how are you going to get lawyers or the general public to look at these people as anything other than dreck? Are they dreck? Not the ones I know. My clients include business leaders, mathematics professors at national universities, and noted authors. They are not dreck.This whole concept of treating them as less than upstanding citizens is particularly curious when you balance against it the idea that the casinos are allowed to use their skills to make money, and they are the stellar citizens of Nevada. But a player who uses his skills should be persecuted. Isn\u2019t that a curious perspective?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: It certainly is. Do you have any other advice to the player when confronted by the casino?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: Don\u2019t show a fake ID. I know a lot of guys are carrying them. If you use another name, one thing that might add some protection is to go down to the Clark County Clerk\u2019s office and register that name as a \u201cregistered assumed name.\u201d The law regarding identification is ambiguous and I believe unconstitutional. The law says,NRS 205.465 Possession or sale of document or personal identifying information to establish false status or identity.1. It is unlawful for a person to possess, sell or transfer any document or personal identifying information for the purpose of establishing a false status, occupation, membership, license or identity for himself or any other person.Nersesian: Pretty broad, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: Wow. So if my wife uses my player\u2019s card in the slot machine, she\u2019s committing a crime under that law.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: There is an argument that she is. I don\u2019t think this statute passes constitutional muster. It\u2019s vague and fails to include a scienter element, but do you want to be the guy who spends two days in jail before being bailed out for $5,000 to see if that is true?There is also a statute, or ordinances, that deal with doing business under an assumed name. The argument will be when this statute is popped on someone who has filed that DBA certificate is that this is not a \u201cfalse\u201d identity. This is a legal, fictitious identity, and there has to be a distinction between the two, else the assumed name statutes would not exist.If you are going to use fictitious ID, file an assumed name certificate in the county where you are using it. Even then you can\u2019t be sure you are not committing a crime, as far as Nevada defines one. Isn\u2019t this fun?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Gamblers have gone to great lengths to avoid being noticed. Often the simplest diversion will add hours to the play. For example, I know of a case where a Gaming agent, a professional security officer, and a chief of security watched the wrong guy on the table for hours before they figured out he was getting signals. They were dumbfounded as to where his information was coming from.Then they watched the other guy at the table, since the first guy was not doing anything to get information. They watched the other guy for hours to figure out what the signals were. The signals were blatantly obvious. My point is not that surveillance is inept. My point is that players think all this stuff is known, and as soon as you do something they are going to see it. The simplest stuff can take years for them to decipher.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

On the other hand, I have another case where a guy was popped twenty minutes after he sat down. He was 86\u2019ed. He somehow was in Griffin. His spread was $50 to $200. He\u2019s relatively an amateur.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: Why is this a case?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: He was back roomed. And he did everything right. He said, \u201cI don\u2019t want to go there.\u201d They entered the back room. \u201cI don\u2019t know why I\u2019m here. Let me go.\u201d Then the beautiful part, the security guard says, \u201cYou\u2019re here because we found you in the book. We know you\u2019re a card counter.\u201d Talk about handing it to me.To add insult to injury, he asks the security supervisor who says, and this is cute, \u201cYou\u2019re here because you\u2019ve committed a gaming violation.\u201d He asked, \u201cWhat violation?\u201d The security chief essentially says, \u201cI don\u2019t have to tell you.\u201d And he walks out.Then he kept telling the other security officers, \u201cLet me go right now. You have no right to hold me. You know that I have done nothing illegal. Let me out that door.\u201d They told him to calm down and he said, \u201cI\u2019m perfectly calm. I just don\u2019t want to be here.\u201d Then the supervisor comes back in and my client said, \u201cLet me go.\u201d The supervisor said, \u201cFirst, I want to ask you some questions.\u201d My client again said, \u201cLet me go right now.\u201d Eventually when it became clear they would get nothing, he was allowed to leave.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: Should he have said, \u201cCall the police.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: That\u2019s the case where we did call the police. They said, \u201cSo? You were card counting.\u201d I\u2019ve got a letter from Metro saying, to paraphrase, \u201cWe choose not to investigate or prosecute. Our scarce resources cannot be used on such claims.\u201d No, but if a casino calls them up and says they have a disorderly person, how long before they are over there hauling that guy away?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RWM: My first question to you was: Why don\u2019t lawyers take these cases? Now I\u2019m wondering: Why do you take them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian: I do this because what is going on in this community is not some minor infringement in everybody\u2019s day-to-day life. To be thrown into a back room against your will, and be told that you have to do whatever they tell you for however long they want\u2014that is imprisonment. It is traumatic beyond what you or I could ever fathom.Those lawyer friends that I told you about, and they are dear friends, they think I\u2019m tilting at windmills like Don Quixote. I get very angry with them. If you\u2019re a lawyer, you took an oath. When I tell my friends that this is what I do to give back, their reaction is, \u201cWell, that\u2019s pretty silly. You\u2019re giving back by making things worse.\u201d The kind of cases I am talking about, the casinos think they can treat patrons as chattel, as pieces of property. These people are not chattel, and they have not done anything illegal. For a casino to think that they have some special position in society that allows them to do this to innocent people cannot be reconciled with the country we live in.That\u2019s why I do it. Because it angers me that much. I don\u2019t make money at this. It has been a money loser for years, but it is a matter of principle, and a wrong that needs righted.
Bob Nersesian can be reached c\/o:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nersesian & Sankiewicz
528 S. 8th Street
Las Vegas, NV 89101
(702) 385-5454<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Casinos and Nevada Politics<\/h4>\n\n\n\n

The Nevada Gaming Commission and the State Gaming Control Board comprise the two-tiered system charged with regulating the Nevada gaming industry. The Commission and Board administer the State laws and regulations governing gaming for the protection of the public and in the public interest in accordance with the policy of the State.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The Nevada Gaming Commission is a five-member lay body appointed by the Governor, which serves in a part-time capacity. The primary responsibilities of the Commission include acting on the recommendations of the State Gaming Control Board in licensing matters and ruling in work permit appeal cases. The Commission is the final authority on licensing matters, having the ability to approve, restrict, limit, condition, deny, revoke, or suspend any gaming license.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The Gaming Control Board is made up of three full-time members, appointed by the governor to four-year terms. The gaming statutes require the board to include: one person with a minimum of five years experience in public or business administration; one person who has been a certified public accountant for five years or more, or who is an expert in finance, auditing, gaming, or economics; and one person with a law enforcement background.The Board\u2019s purpose is to protect the stability of the gaming industry through investigations, licensing, and enforcement of laws and regulations. They also insure the collection of taxes and fees, and maintain public confidence in gaming. The Board implements and enforces the state laws and regulations through seven divisions. Those seven divisions are: Administration Division, Audit Division, Corporate Securities Division, Electronic Services Division, Investigations division, Tax and License Division, and Enforcement Division.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

If a card counter or other casino patron were to have an interaction with someone from Gaming, it would most likely be someone from the Enforcement Division. The Enforcement Division is the law enforcement arm of the Gaming Control Board. It maintains five offices statewide and operates 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.Primary responsibilities are: to conduct criminal and regulatory investigations, arbitrate disputes between patrons and licensees, gather intelligence on organized criminal groups involved in gaming related activities, make recommendations on potential candidates for the \u201cList of Excluded Persons,\u201d conduct background investigations on work-card applicants, and inspect and approve new games, surveillance systems, chips and tokens, charitable lotteries, and bingo.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

For an in-depth look at the Gaming Commission, read License To Steal: Nevada’s Gaming Control System In The Megaresort Age<\/em><\/a>, by Jeff Burbank. \u2660<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

An Attorney Fights Casino Abuse of Professional Gamblers in the Nevada Courts and\u00a0Wins by Richard W. Munchkin(From\u00a0Blackjack Forum\u00a0XXII #4, Winter 2002\/03)\u00a9 Blackjack Forum 2003 [Bob Nersesian is a partner in the Las Vegas law firm of Nersesian & Sankiewicz. He specializes in representing players in lawsuits against casinos. Richard W. Munchkin is a member of […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":55,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[631,1],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/123174"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/55"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=123174"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/123174\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=123174"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=123174"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=123174"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}