{"id":124176,"date":"2022-09-30T14:43:10","date_gmt":"2022-09-30T21:43:10","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/gambling-with-an-edge\/?page_id=124176"},"modified":"2024-01-25T13:03:44","modified_gmt":"2024-01-25T21:03:44","slug":"the-over-under-side-bet-is-spreading-fast","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/blog\/the-over-under-side-bet-is-spreading-fast\/","title":{"rendered":"The Over\/Under Side Bet Is Spreading Fast"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

by Arnold Snyder
[From\u00a0Blackjack Forum<\/em>\u00a0Vol. XI #1, March 1991]
\u00a9 1991 Blackjack Forum<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

[Editor’s Note:\u00a0The complete Over\/Under Report\u00a0is now available free at the link below. I’m posting this article under Blackjack History because it describes how exciting and valuable this side-bet was to card counters in the early years of its existence. It also provides some of the early computer simulations of the bet in various games with various numbers of decks. I’m not aware of any casinos that still offer this bet, although there is an occasional report of a casino that offers it with a continuous shuffle machine, making the counting system irrelevant. – A.S.]<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s been a year and a half now since I published my\u00a0Over\/Under Report<\/a><\/em>. Since that time, the number of casinos offering the over\/under rule at their blackjack tables has continued to climb. Not a few serious players have also discovered the many cruise ships that are offering the over-under rule.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Since cruise ship games are typically heat-free, allowing min-to-max spreads without countermeasures, card counters who can afford $100 bets are finding that the potential win on \u201ccruises to nowhere\u201d more than justifies the cruise expense. Prior to the introduction of the over\/under rule, the otherwise lousy rules on cruise ships, always in shoe games and usually with unexceptional penetration, failed to attract serious players.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

According to Caesars Tahoe pit boss, Ken Perrie, who invented the over\/under rule and markets the distinctive over\/under table layout, more and more casinos all over the world will be opening over\/under tables in the near future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The Huxley Corporation (London) handles marketing of the over\/under rule in foreign casinos. They report sales of over\/under table layouts to casinos in Yugoslavia, Poland, Turkey, Czechoslovakia, South Africa, Canada and the Isle of Man.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ken Perrie is currently negotiating with casinos in the Bahamas and Aruba to begin testing the over\/under rule on some tables. He has also been negotiating with all of the Atlantic City casinos to begin field testing over\/under games. Two riverboat casinos running out of Iowa now have the over\/under rule on all blackjack tables\u2014the President\u2019s Cruise Line and the Dubuque Belle.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

There are also 10 to 20 over\/under tables scattered throughout various of the Deadwood, South Dakota casinos. As previously reported, the Ojibwa Indian Reservation Casino in upper Michigan also has over\/under tables.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

All of the blackjack tables on the Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines ships now offer over\/under bets, as do all tables on the Dolphin Cruise Lines. The Carnival Cruise Lines have some over\/under tables available on all ships. The Norwegian Cruise lines, Kloster Cruise Lines, Atlantic Maritime Cruise Lines, and Princess Cruise Lines offer over\/under games on some, but not all, ships.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

In Northern Nevada, you\u2019ll find over\/under tables at Caesars Tahoe, Hyatt Lake Tahoe, and coming soon to Harrah\u2019s (Stateline), Harvey\u2019s and the Horizon (formerly High Sierra). In Reno, over\/under bets are still offered on all tables at the Comstock Casino and on one two-decker at the Peppermill. The Comstock has recently undergone a management change, and according to one dealer, their over\/under games will be restricted to the new shoe games they are installing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Bally\u2019s has taken out one of their two over\/under tables and the other is reportedly open only in the evenings. You\u2019ll also find an over\/under table at Stockmans (in Fallon) and at the Red Garter (in Wendover).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

In Las Vegas, you\u2019ll find over\/under tables at Caesars Palace, the Golden Nugget (which has more over\/under tables coming\u2014hopefully with higher limits!), the Holiday, Whiskey Pete\u2019s, the Silver Nugget, and coming soon to the Tropicana.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

In the fifteen years I\u2019ve been observing casino blackjack, I don\u2019t recall any new rule spreading so fast or so widely. The reasons for the popularity of the rule are many. It\u2019s an easy rule for players to comprehend; it\u2019s easy for dealers to incorporate into the game; it has no significant effect on any other aspect of the game; from the players\u2019 perspective it\u2019s an attractive betting option; from the casinos\u2019 perspective, the house edge is four to five times higher on over\/under bets than on the regular blackjack hand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Frequently Asked Questions About the Over Under Report<\/em><\/h5>\n\n\n\n

The Over Under rule attracts amateur counters and wannabe counters like flies because it seems so easy to beat. In fact, very few over\/under bettors make any money on their over\/under bets. Standard blackjack card counting systems just don\u2019t work very well for over\/under bets.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019ve been receiving many letters from players who have purchased, or are considering purchasing, my Over\/<\/em>Under Report<\/em>. I\u2019ve recently used John Imming\u2019s RWC simulation software to answer the three most common technical questions I get.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Question #1: \u201cAll of the predicted win rates in your Over\/Under Report<\/em> are derived by mathematical analysis using your calculated effects of removal with Hi-Opt I frequency distributions. I\u2019d love to believe your estimates, but couldn\u2019t you run some computer simulations to back up your predictions?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Using the RWC software to test the 1- and 2-deck Reno games, with both 67% and 75% shuffle points, what follows are the win rates after 40+ million hands each, using the Over\/Under Count, as published in the Over\/Under Report.<\/em> I used a flat-bet strategy, a 1-to-2 spread, and a 1-to-4 spread.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RENO ONE-DECK<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>Flat<\/strong><\/td>1-to-2<\/strong><\/td>1-to-4<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
67% dealt:<\/strong><\/td>1.66%<\/td>2.49%<\/td>3.25%<\/td><\/tr>
75% dealt:<\/strong><\/td>2.15%<\/td>2.97%<\/td>3.62%<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n
RENO TWO-DECK<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>Flat<\/strong><\/td>1-to-2<\/strong><\/td>1-to-4<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
67% dealt:<\/strong><\/td>0.53%<\/td>1.12%<\/td>1.70%<\/td><\/tr>
75% dealt:<\/strong><\/td>0.87%<\/td>1.55%<\/td>2.16%<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

You can see here why I advise counters in hand-held over\/under games to flat bet, especially if there\u2019s decent penetration. You can get a healthy edge with a flat bet and you\u2019re less likely to wear out your welcome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Caesars Tahoe has 6-deck over\/under tables. They\u2019ve also recently made their rules better: Vegas Strip rules with double after splits and late surrender (just like Caesars Palace in Las Vegas). The following chart shows what the over\/under count gets in the Caesars game. The over\/under count surrender indices were not published in the Over\/Under Report<\/em>. Use these:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

OVER\/UNDER COUNT SURRENDER INDICES<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>9<\/strong><\/td>X<\/strong><\/td>A<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
16<\/strong><\/td>+1<\/td>-2<\/td>-1<\/td><\/tr>
15<\/strong><\/td>+3<\/td>-1<\/td>+2<\/td><\/tr>
14<\/strong><\/td> <\/td>+3<\/td> <\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n
CAESARS TAHOE 6-DECK<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>Flat<\/strong><\/td>1-to-2<\/strong><\/td>1-to-4<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
67% dealt:<\/strong><\/td>0.01%<\/td>0.22%<\/td>0.57%<\/td><\/tr>
75% dealt:<\/strong><\/td>0.18%<\/td>0.50%<\/td>0.97%<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

I also simulated the standard (no surrender) 8-deck Atlantic City game, with the typical 2 decks cut off (75% penetration), but I put in the over\/under option:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

ATLANTIC CITY 8-DECK<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>Flat<\/strong><\/td>1-to-2<\/strong><\/td>1-to-4<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
75% dealt:<\/strong><\/td>-0.06%<\/td>0.20%<\/td>0.55%<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

If you compare these computer simulated win rates with those predicted in the Over\/Under Report<\/em> via mathematical analysis, you\u2019ll find that the mathematical analyses were quite accurate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The next most common question I get is: \u201cWouldn\u2019t it be helpful to know the over\/under indices for \u2018standard\u2019 card counting systems? I use the Hi-Lo Count, and I can\u2019t see learning a whole new counting system for the few over\/under games available. How much potential gain is there for the Hi-Lo Count with optimal over\/under bets?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Using the Hi-Lo Count, you should place the over bet if your true count is +5 or higher, and you should place the under bet if your true count is -8 or below. Let\u2019s compare the win rates of a player using the Hi-Lo Count with and without these over\/under indices in the 6-deck Caesars Tahoe game (using Wong\u2019s Professional Blackjack<\/em> strategy indices for other playing decisions), along with the win rates of a player using the Over\/Under Count, as published in the Over\/Under Report.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

This is how the count values compare:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

COMPARISON OF COUNT VALUES<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>2<\/strong><\/td>3<\/strong><\/td>4<\/strong><\/td>5<\/strong><\/td>6<\/strong><\/td>7<\/strong><\/td>8<\/strong><\/td>9<\/strong><\/td>X<\/strong><\/td>A<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
Hi-Lo<\/strong><\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td>-1<\/td>-1<\/td><\/tr>
O\/U<\/strong><\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td>-1<\/td>+1<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

And, these are the win rates:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

CAESARS TAHOE 6-DECK (75% PEN)<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>Flat<\/strong><\/td>1-to-2<\/strong><\/td>1-to-4<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
Hi-Lo (no o\/u)<\/strong><\/td>-0.23%<\/td>+0.05%<\/td>+0.41%<\/td><\/tr>
Hi-Lo (with o\/u)<\/strong><\/td>-0.14%<\/td>+0.16%<\/td>+0.52%<\/td><\/tr>
O\/U<\/strong><\/td>+0.18%<\/td>+0.50%<\/td>+0.97%<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

So, in this 6-deck game, a Hi-Lo counter can get about a tenth of a percent extra if over\/under bets are allowed. Hi-Lo players should note that there is virtually no gain whatsoever on the under bets.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Although the under bet should be placed at a true count of -8 or below, which rarely occurs, you should not increase your bet until your true count is -11 or below, which will almost never occur in a shoe game. Until your count gets to -11, the expected loss on your blackjack hand exceeds the expected gain on the under bet. From -8 to -10, the under bet just acts as a hedge to reduce your loss.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

For this reason, if you typically table-hop with the Hi-Lo Count, you should continue to do so in over\/under games, but take advantage of the over bet at +5 or higher. With the Zen Count, place the over bet at a true count of +6 or more. With Hi-Opt I, make the over bet at +4 or more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

If you side-count aces, with an ace-neutral count (like Hi-Opt I), adjust your ace into the plus count cards for over\/under bets. If you side count aces with an ace-negative count (such as the Hi-Lo), double the adjustment you usually make to neutralize the ace, so that the value applied to the ace is reversed to a plus count. (If this doesn\u2019t make sense to you, you probably shouldn\u2019t be attempting to side count aces!)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

If you find yourself playing in over\/under games frequently, you should probably learn the Over\/Under Count. The potential gains are that substantial.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

With or without the over\/under bets, a Hi-Lo counter would not want to sit through all negative counts in this 6-deck game with a small spread. An Over\/Under counter may obtain a decent win rate in this game, even sitting through the negatives with a small spread. Deeper penetration would be desirable for any counter (natch!).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

An Unbalanced Card Counting System for the Over Under Bet<\/h5>\n\n\n\n

The third most common question I get is \u201cCan\u2019t you develop an unbalanced running count system for the over\/under bets? I\u2019ve gotten so used to the ease of the Red 7 Count that true count adjustments and strategy tables put me off.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The main problem here is that I can\u2019t come up with any easy running count method that will take advantage of both the over and under bets. Using the RWC simulation analyses, however, it\u2019s easy to see that even with the over\/under count, the significant gains in multi-deck over\/under games come from the over bets. Since most of the over\/under games available in casinos are shoe games, we can develop running count systems for taking advantage of the over bet only.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Here are three unbalanced running count systems that will work very well on over bets in multi-deck games:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

COMPARISON OF COUNT VALUES<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>2<\/strong><\/td>3<\/strong><\/td>4<\/strong><\/td>5<\/strong><\/td>6<\/strong><\/td>7<\/strong><\/td>8<\/strong><\/td>9<\/strong><\/td>X<\/strong><\/td>A<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
Sys. 1:<\/strong><\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td>-1<\/td>+1<\/td><\/tr>
Sys. 2:<\/strong><\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td>-1<\/td>+2<\/td><\/tr>
Sys. 3:<\/strong><\/td>+2<\/td>+1<\/td>+1<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td> 0<\/td>-1<\/td>-1<\/td>+2<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

If you are familiar with the Red 7 Count (from Blackbelt<\/em> in Blackjack<\/em>), these counts work the same way, except that in each of these systems, the \u201cpivot\u201d equals 4 times the number of decks. In other words, in a 4-deck game, the pivot equals +16, while in a 2-deck game, the pivot equals +8, and so on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

All betting and strategy decisions for these counts are made at the running count pivot. In other words, at the pivot or higher, raise your bet, take insurance, place the over bet, and alter these basic strategy decisions:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stand on 16 vs. 9, X and A<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stand on 15 vs. X<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Stand on 12 vs. 2 & 3<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Double down on 10 or A vs. A<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Surrender 15 vs. 9 and A<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Surrender 14 vs. X<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Use basic strategy for all other decisions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This is an easy system to remember. In the 6-deck game, all betting and strategy changes occur at a running count of +24.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I computer tested System #3, which is the best of these counts, in the 6-deck Caesars Tahoe game. We\u2019ll call this unbalanced running count system the \u201cOver Count,\u201d as opposed to the \u201cOver\/Under Count,\u201d and compare it to both the Over\/Under Count and the Hi-Lo (with the optimal Hi-Lo over\/under indices +5 and -8).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

CAESARS TAHOE 6-DECK (75% PEN)<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>Flat<\/strong><\/td>1-to-2<\/strong><\/td>1-to-4<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
O\/U:<\/strong><\/td>+0.18%<\/td>+0.50%<\/td>+0.97%<\/td><\/tr>
Over:<\/strong><\/td>-0.03%<\/td>+0.31%<\/td>+0.80%<\/td><\/tr>
Hi-Lo:<\/strong><\/td>-0.14%<\/td>+0.16%<\/td>+0.52%<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

So, even though the unbalanced Over Count is placing no under bets, the gains on the over bets are so substantial that the player may play basic strategy through all negative counts and still get the lion\u2019s share of the potential gains in this game.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

A player using the Over Count would enjoy even more substantial gains if table hopping to avoid negative counts. Despite the fact that the Over Count is a level-two counting system (aces and deuces count +2), in my opinion it is quite a bit simpler to learn and play than either the Over\/Under Count or the Hi-Lo. With just a few strategy decisions that change at the same running count, as professional level systems go, this one\u2019s a piece of cake.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The unbalanced Over\/Under Count is also effective, but substantially less effective, than the Over\/Under Count in hand-held games. These are the single-deck win rates:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RENO 1-DECK, 67% Dealt<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>Flat<\/strong><\/td>1-to-2<\/strong><\/td>1-to-4<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
O\/U:<\/strong><\/td>1.66%<\/td>2.49%<\/td>3.25%<\/td><\/tr>
Over:<\/strong><\/td>0.93%<\/td>1.60%<\/td>2.17%<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n
RENO 1-DECK, 75% Dealt<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
 <\/td>Flat<\/strong><\/td>1-to-2<\/strong><\/td>1-to-4<\/strong><\/td><\/tr>
O\/U<\/strong><\/td>2.15%<\/td>2.97%<\/td>3.62%<\/td><\/tr>
Over:<\/strong><\/td>1.28%<\/td>2.05%<\/td>2.69%<\/td><\/tr><\/tbody><\/table><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

So, if you ever play single-deck over\/under games, I\u2019d advise learning the Over\/Under Count with the complete set of strategy indices published in the Over\/Under Report<\/em>. The simplified Over Count will take substantial gains in this game, but no running count system is comparable to a balanced true count system for hand-held games.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

One other question I\u2019m frequently asked, which I\u2019m going to answer succinctly without charts and tables: \u201cCan I use the Over\/Under Count<\/em> for regular blackjack games that don\u2019t offer over\/under bets?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Unfortunately, unless you normally play in deeply dealt single-deck games with a small spread, this is not advisable. Both the Over\/Under Count and the Over Count correlate poorly to your betting decisions in regular blackjack games. If you find it impossible to learn and use two different counting systems, one for regular blackjack and one for over\/under blackjack, then you\u2019re going to have to make some kind of compromise.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Maybe you should just stick with your regular counting system and take the small gains available with over bets when available. Maybe you should learn to side count aces so that you may adjust the ace to the plus or minus side as appropriate to the game. Maybe you should take up gin rummy. The casinos are putting more and more of these over\/under tables in because they are beating the majority of the players who place over\/under bets, including the card counters.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The fact remains that if you have access to over\/under games, and you know how to play them, these games offer the most profitable opportunities for card counters to be found anywhere. \u2660<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

by Arnold Snyder[From\u00a0Blackjack Forum\u00a0Vol. XI #1, March 1991]\u00a9 1991 Blackjack Forum [Editor’s Note:\u00a0The complete Over\/Under Report\u00a0is now available free at the link below. I’m posting this article under Blackjack History because it describes how exciting and valuable this side-bet was to card counters in the early years of its existence. It also provides some of […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":55,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[631,1],"tags":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/124176"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/55"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=124176"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/124176\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=124176"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=124176"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.lasvegasadvisor.com\/shop\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=124176"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}