Here’s the scenario: You’re walking around a casino floor (probably scouting games) when suddenly a security guard walks up to you and asks for ID. When faced with this situation recently, one rookie did the following: He produced his ID, left the casino shortly thereafter, went to the adjacent sister property the next day, then got backed off nearly immediately while scouting target games. Before getting into how horrendously bad this rookie’s situational response was, let me share with you a quick story (a more detailed version of which I can share someday if people want to hear it).
About 15 years ago, I was called to Tunica to be an alternate spotter on a hole-card game that had already been hit for six figures by the infamous “Wheelchair” and his then-protege. In one of the first parts of the operation, we needed to go to the Gold Strike for the BP to get chips out of his casino box (I know, I’m shaking my head, too). We considered this a delicate operation, so I was assigned to be the lookout, standing in the middle of the casino floor keeping an eye out for any trouble that might be developing. After a couple minutes, a security guard came up to me and asked if I had ID. Ironically, I was the lookout for precisely this type of warning sign. It was ON! I politely said I didn’t have any ID, but that I would go fetch it, and then I walked. And I walked. And I walked. For me to have been asked for ID was such a serious warning sign that we deemed it unsafe for the guys to pick me up in the car. They actually drove out of town immediately, and I was stranded. That night involved being chased, ditching my clothes in a casino bathroom stall, and walking up to a motel desk trying to hide the fact that my face was bleeding, but it started with a simple question, “Sir, could I see some ID?”
Back to our rookie. The first mistake he made was thinking that an ID request is not a big deal. It’s a huge deal. If you’re just standing on the casino floor, then you’re not procuring or consuming alcohol, so the casino does not have any immediate underage-drinking liability. You are also not gambling, so there is no underage-gambling issue either. At worst, the casino has a minor who is loitering, who could be simply told that he has to move along if he is underage. Also, dealers and waitresses in Vegas are empowered to demand ID, so they already provide a line of defense that relieves security guards of this duty. As you see in Vegas, the casino entrances are not manned by ID-checking guards as in the Midwest or Europe. So step #1 is: know your venue. Have an understanding of how rare it is to be spontaneously asked for ID while standing around. In Vegas, this is not a common event (in a few particular spots it is more common, such as in the Margaritaville pit).
The reason the ID request on the casino floor is such a big deal is that if it is heat, it’s a particularly bad type of heat. It means surveillance is watching you. It means that they care enough that they can’t even wait for you to sit at a table. It means that they want ID, probably as a precursor to barring you or databasing you. Keep in mind that they can just bar you if they don’t like the color of your shirt, so they don’t need your ID at all. If they are demanding ID, it is quite likely that they want to make some record of barring you, and they want to database you, at least internally.
The #2 thing you need to do is: Try to get out before the security guard has a chance to say anything to you. You should have already seen the guard before he even got too close to you. Immediately keep your head down and casually (but without delay) start moving toward an exit. You may have to take an evasive path winding through some slot machines. As you leave, you will acquire a great clue regarding the seriousness of the incident. If the security guard had only a casual interest in age verification, then he will probably just watch you leave, thinking that his problem is solving itself. If you’ve got heat, then the guard will start to chase you down, and will start talking into his radio/microphone, which leads to our next point:
Tip #3: Try to determine who is calling the shots. If this really is just an innocuous age-check ID request, then the security guard probably is acting on his own. If heat is driving this incident, then the security guard is likely receiving instruction from surveillance. So as the guard approaches you, watch to see if he is talking into his microphone/radio. If he accosts you and demands ID, test him: Tell him you don’t have ID, but that you’ll make sure to bring it next time and can go get it now. After telling you that it’s illegal to be in a casino without ID (yawn), he will tell his master, “The suspect refuses to provide ID.” If he says something like that and awaits further instruction, then you know that this is indeed a conspiracy, not a solo hero security guard.
Let’s repeat that last part, Tip #4: Do not actually give the guy ID! What good can possibly come of that? This is probably heat, so why on earth would you want to give ID? To make the heat go away? Wrong! Oh, I know, because, “Refusing to give ID would look suspicious.” That is the most idiotic rationalization of spineless capitulation that I have ever heard, but I’ve heard it many times. Suppose you are a drug smuggler and you get stopped for speeding with a trunkful of cocaine. When the cop asks if you mind if he looks in your trunk, do you reason that since it would look suspicious to refuse, that you should give the cop permission to search the trunk???
After refusing to give ID, and then leaving (the rookie left after giving ID, but if you’re going to leave anyway, why would you give ID?? Just tell them you were on your way out already and just leave! Don’t give ID!), you can #5: Collect some additional intel. Walk out the door, and don’t get on your cell phone while you are still in visual range of the casino’s cameras. Now, if you have any young-looking, non-AP friends, send one into the casino to loiter near the same security guard. If the security guard does an age-check ID request on your friend, then you can breathe a bit easier, but if nothing happens, you should worry a bit more. Go online and check if there have been any heat reports on the dump. Call some AP colleagues. Get the word on the street.
You could try to loiter on a different shift or in front of a different guard to see what happens, but the safest thing is to stay away, for a while if you can. I declined an ID request at a tribal casino where I had no prior heat, but saw the security guard talking into his mic. I left and stayed out of that casino for over a year. That’s how seriously we treat the situation.
So our rookie goes in the next day to scout the target games at the adjacent sister property. If you are under observation, why would you lead them directly to the target? If you are under observation, why would you want to confirm that you are indeed there looking at AP targets?
You shouldn’t even be there, but if you must, then #6: Lay some cover. Sit down at a slot machine near the pit, and play for a bit to see if you are approached. If you are approached and backed off, then at least you didn’t compromise the target game. If you do see a game you want to play, buy in on some other table in that same pit. See if anything happens after you buy in and play for 10 minutes on some other game, like baccarat or craps. In general, this last move is a good idea. When you haven’t played a target for a while, and don’t know if heat has accumulated in the meantime, you should buy in on a non-target table to see if there is any immediate reaction to your presence or your name on your player’s card (if you are using a card). If there is instant trouble, at least your crew and target were not compromised.
My most succinct advice for this situation comes from Robert DeNiro’s character in the movie “Ronin”: “Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt.”
Glad to hear your recovering and feeling better. Best to you and hopefully you’ll be back to 100% in no-time.
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For those wondering about VABJ’s comment. James has been recovering from a serious medical problem; hence, the long lapse between posts. He’s good now and the blog will function as before with regular posts and updates.
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Glad you’re back.
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I don’t understand the term “heat” in the blog by James Grosjeans on the Aug 20th.
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Heat is the term for pressure or scrutiny from a casino, usually coming from a boss or security. If they’re potentially on to whatever you’re doing and watching more closely, you’ve got heat.
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Glad you’re OK James. See you around sometime.
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Glad to see our “leader” is back at the helm and feeling better. Burning felts up one at a time.
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I’d like to hear more about the Gold Strike story!
Sounds like a great one.
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It seems to me that standing in the middle of a casino floor, doing nothing and trying to look innocuous while surreptitiously glancing at the pit and the cashier’s cage, would draw more attention, aka heat, than if you set fire to yourself.
I have no problem with legitimate skill-based play to beat the casino, and in fact, NJ law says it’s perfectly legal, but holecarding is cheating, and the casino is justified in turning you into, as Jim Croce put it, “a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone” if they catch you. I wonder why anybody does it when they could beat the game honestly by playing with modest skill and a decent bankroll.
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Why doesn’t American casino utilize European No Hole Card (ENHC) to stop the hole carders? Don’t take the extra money on double downs/splits if the dealer gets a blackjack.
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Because not taking a hole-card, then letting an entire table play out a hand (and civilians are extremely slow), only to discover that the round was moot due to a dealer blackjack, is a colossal waste of time. Do you think, as most casino bosses do, that maximizing profits is achieved by making sure that there is not a single player who ever beats you? Would you, in order to stop the handful of hole-card APs in the world, slow down every single table, every day, every hour?
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Are you aware of Caesars Entertainment’s aggressive policy of identifying card counters for the purpose of banning them from all their properties? It has recently happened at the Baltimore Horseshoe, Planet Hollywood in Las Vegas, and Harrah’s Ak-Chin in
Maricopa, AZ. The Baltimore Horseshoe incident resulted in a high-profiled poker pro being banned from the World Series of Poker (WSOP). At Harrah’s Ak-Chin, the “criminal” card counter was arrested for a $700 cash-out because he did not provide an ID.
This ID stuff is getting out of control and thanks for bringing it up. I plan on hanging around the Margaritaville pit in Las Vegas to see if security has gone wild there.
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It seems to me you weren’t there. Who said I was doing nothing? Did I say the casino floor was empty? Did I say I was surreptitiously glancing at the pit? Documents later revealed that we were already under surveillance before we even got to the floor, and, if you read the story, I got out without producing ID, and was never linked with the other guys on any flyer related to the incident, so I apparently did a lot of things right. And the other guys got paid by the casino (I wasn’t part of that chop), with a bit of help from Templeton Fowlkes.
As for your comments on hole-carding, … yawn. Not sure how you say it’s cheating when the courts have stated quite unequivocally that it is legal. I guess you just make up your own rules. Have you not read one of the POSTED RULES at every poker room in the country: “It is the player’s responsibility to protect his hand.” And if you think counting is a skillful way to beat a game while hole-carding is trivially easy, then that tells me you never played a hole-card in your life.
Here is a simple question: Do you make a living playing table games? We both know the answer to that question. So perhaps you could start up a blog and write about your specialty, so we can all learn about that.
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Do I do what you do? No. My personal ethics, which you are not required to share, prevent it. I did, however, make my living, and a good one, playing blackjack in Vegas some twenty-odd years ago. (So you had no clue, in fact, to the answer to your question.) I got tired of it, but I could have persisted and could do so now, though conditions are much worse and earn rates are lower (or you need a much bigger bankroll and bet size to achieve the same hourly earn, which exacerbates the problem of heat). Many people, some of whom I know personally, abandoned the idea of beating the casino via skill when conditions got worse. Many of them decided to cheat instead.
I never said that holecarding was easy. I’m sure it takes an elaborately planned and choreographed series of movements and signals. In that way, it is definitely skill-based. But so are burglary and pickpocketing. And if you want to discuss legality (your silly poker room comparison aside), there are plenty of unethical activities that are nonetheless legal. You can rip people off in a myriad of ways and the only consequence you will face if caught is their anger (if it’s a casino that catches you, though, you’d better worry about their anger).
But I reiterate: why resort to an activity of dubious ethical nature when you can beat the game simply by applying your (perhaps, I concede, diminishing) intellect? Say to the casino, “I don’t have to cheat ya to beat ya” and in AC at least, they can’t do a thing about it!
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Kevin, I like you, but you seem to live to argue with the host of this blog and here you come again right out of the chute. That’s fine, we’ve never censored at LVA. But I’ll remind you that the subject here is showing (or not) ID. If you want to find fault in the advice offered on that subject, have at it. Otherwise, let’s save the hole-card-right-or-wrong debate for the proper time.
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No problem. Not showing ID is stupid in that it confirms in the minds of the casino suits that you’re worthy of suspicion. You won’t get left alone after that. If you persist in darkening their doorstep, you’ll find yourself whisked downtown by Metro on a “disturbing the peace” charge or some such tommyrot. I’m sure things work that way in AC as well, given that the town looked like Berlin in 1945 before the casinos bestowed their magnificence and munificence on the place and the PO-lice are very, very grateful as a result. Bottom line: carry ID, show ID, don’t skulk around the casino like some bottom-feeder, and beat the casinos with whatever legitimate means are at your disposal. There are still dozens of advantage plays that won’t get you dragged downtown when “caught.”
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Kevin Lewis wrote: “Not showing ID is stupid in that it confirms in the minds of the casino suits that you’re worthy of suspicion. You won’t get left alone after that.” and also: “It’s kind of ridiculous to refuse to show ID.”
I would normally say that this statement proves you’re completely clueless about modern table games play, but since you’ve certified your vast experience, then there is no other way I can put this: you’re a moron.
I can and will write an entire blog post on this when I have time (I could get years worth of material just by analyzing your comments), but for now, I just IMPLORE my readers NOT to follow Kevin Lewis’s idiotic advice on this one.
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It’s very simple: we’re not doing something of a “dubious ethical nature.” It’s a card game played for money. The courts have defined the rules. We play by those rules. Guys like you, and casino bums, constantly try to paint me as some scumbag for getting the hole card. I didn’t make the rules. If Sheriff vs. Einbinder had gone the other way, I wouldn’t be doing what we’re doing. But as Anthony Curtis says, that’s an off-topic debate saved for another time.
You confirmed the answer to my question. My question was: Do you make a living playing table games? The answer is no. The fact that you made a living at it twenty years ago means next to nothing, as conditions are completely different now. Curiously, also, you didn’t say how long you supposedly played for a living.
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Eight years, then three more part-time. But so what? This isn’t a dick-waving contest. My playing experience is irrelevant, as is yours, to the discussion. BJ remains very beatable.
It’s kind of ridiculous to refuse to show ID. High-resolution cameras, face recognition software, and shared databases mean that you can be conclusively identified and targeted for exclusion if the casino wishes. So what if they assign you a code number instead of your real name on the ID you carry? You’re toast either way if they want you to be. Scenario: you refuse to show ID and then dash for the exits. You make it safely to a taxi/the dumpster behind the adjacent property/wherever. You pat yourself on the back for your studly evasion skills; but do you think that the next time you enter that casino, you’ll be greeted with a “Welcome back, sir!”??? You can Trumpishly posture all you want, but refusing to show ID will mark you as a “troublemaker” and they’ll have the boot ready for you next time you attempt to enter the property. They don’t need an actual reason to exclude you, per Nevada law.
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KLew-less says: “Eight years, then three more part-time. But so what? This isn’t a dick-waving contest.”
You apparently think it is, and that’s part of your problem. The other part of your problem is that if it were such a contest, your 8+3 years, twenty years ago, probably mostly as counter, just doesn’t amount to much at this point. It is what it is. On the matters I post about, my crew has vastly more experience than you do, but you incessantly argue and criticize on every topic. It mystifies me why you even read this blog, since you have nothing to learn.
KLew-less says: “My playing experience is irrelevant, as is yours, to the discussion.”
What?? Benefitting from my vast playing experience is the reason people (other than you) read this blog, and it is the reason for this blog’s existence.
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Glad you’re back. And what is holecarding?
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Hole-carding is taking advantage of seeing the dealer’s down (“hole”) card. There are several ways to get this information, many of which have been deemed legal by the courts. Dustin Marks wrote Cheating at Blackjack and Cheating at Blackjack Squared several years ago, both of which cover hole-carding techniques in depth. Huntington Press has combined and updated those two books and will be releasing the new Cheating at Blackjack later this year.
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Good story. I seen a wheelchair player in the same venue several days ago playing a pitch game and I noticed how the dealer was protecting the hole card. It seemed like the game was being watched closely by the pit so I stayed away.
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Glad to hear you’re back in action, James. Are the casinos now resorting to infecting you with rare tropical diseases?
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Welcome back and Thanks for providing your incite and experience for us.
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Any advice for young looking players who are always asked for ID before they play?
I’ve read the suggestion of getting a wristband at security, but I’ve personally seen a floor still ask for ID after that player showed his wristband.
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James glad to see you’re back in good health and giving great advice as always.
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Welcome back James. Add my vote to those who would like to hear the rest of the Gold Strike story leading up to you checking into the motel trying to hide a bloody nose.
I may be having my own blog on the LVA site soon. If I can’t bar Kevin Lewis, I don’t want to play!
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Calling someone who disagrees with you a moron is a tactic I abandoned in second grade. You, James, are anything but a moron. However, I do disagree with you. That seems to be something you absolutely cannot tolerate. That’s too bad. It means that you will never actually hear, much less consider, any point of view that fails to align with yours. And you know very well that I’m not a moron, and that your calling me a moron is, well…moronic. Not worthy of your undoubted intellect, though it might be typical for you nonetheless. I have no way of knowing that, and I hope I never find out (by meeting you, for instance, God forfend).
If you haven’t picked up on this by now, I despise those who ruin legitimate +EV opportunities by trying to find ways to twist the rules. So maybe holecarding is technically legal. So what? The rules as well as the tradition of the game are that the dealer’s holecard should be hidden. You and your buddies have found a way to circumvent that–occasionally and briefly. What you do is akin to playing bridge and straining to see if one of your opponents might expose part of his hand. Yes, you’re entitled to use that information if you can obtain it, but is in in the spirit of the game? No way. Is it ethical? Only if you redefine the term, “ethical.”
The result of holecarding is that some casinos deal a European-style no-holecard game, where if the dealer gets a natural after the player’s action is completed, all bets, even doubles or splits, are lost. And if you Ocean’s Eleven types DO make a big score at a casino where the dealer still checks under his upcard, well, who ultimately pays for that? All the other players. The casinos have revenue targets. If they don’t get there, they’ll just make the rules worse to compensate. You moron.
Oopsy. I take that back.
As far as showing ID goes, I guess that everyone will have to make his own decision re how it looks when you refuse to show ID. The advice not to show ID might very well be sound if you’re an angle shooter who doesn’t want to be identified. Not, as I explained, that it will do you any good. (It’s kind of laughable, JG, that you think that looking at a piece of identification printed on a plastic card is the primary means casinos use to identify you.)
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Kevin Lewis:
“Yes, you’re entitled to use that information if you can obtain it, but is in (sic) in THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME? No way.”
WTH is “in the spirit of the game” when it’s casino blackjack?!!!
And, don’t say, ‘the way it’s meant/understood to be played.” That’s still saying the same thing.
Simply put, casino blackjack = use any legal means to win the $$$!
YOU can play casino blackjack however YOU want to – that’s your business. But, don’t ever judge/chastise others’ play when it is LEGAL. (Last I looked, that’s what legal meant.)
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The casino sets the rules of play, designate 100% of the environment and tools, and in all other aspects dictate 100% of the game parameters. So therefore, LEGALLY playing within those imposed conditions is all that is required of Grosjean.
Don’t like it? Not within “the spirit of the game?” Unethical? – change the rules, environment, conditions, law, etc. It’s the casino’s 100% control!
Otherwise, don’t b_tch when someone (legally) wins playing within the set conditions.
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I would like to hear the more detailed version as to why you were being chased, had to ditch your clothes in a casino bathroom stall, and how your face started bleeding while walking up to the motel desk. Did it happen while running away from a security guard in the casino?
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JG: NICE JOB ON THE BLOG, and disregard the negative comments. Don’t waste your time defending your position to negative press. Some people just don’t get it and never will.
Interestingly, many, many years ago in Tunica, I witnessed a person in a wheelchair (with a confederate) that looked suspicious to me.. I was into other things at the time, but I’d say that this person was definitely hole carding with his advantageous position. I do remember the game: a single deck game with all of the good rules. Something looked a little “off” to me about the whole scenario, and this is what drew my attention. I remember purposely staying away from the wheelchair person, because 60 feet away was something I was playing with a nice edge, and I didn’t want to be contaminated in any way.
I doesn’t take a genius to see if something JDLR (JUST DOESN’T LOOK RIGHT), just an acute sense of reading body language and mannerisms.
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I am a big believer in privacy and will not produce ID especially if asked by one in authority or apparent authority, such as a police officer who does not have the right to it because I am minding my own business walking, a security officer, for returns at, for example, Sam’s, and the like. As far as I am concerned, there is no valid reason for any casino agent to come up and request ID unless the person clearly looks underage or is suspected of some criminal activity which is backed up by probable cause. He/she may make it sound like a demand but in reality, it is nothing more than a request which does not need to be honored. All the casino can do is exclude you from the premises unless it has probable cause for detaining you to prefer criminal charges. However, you could voluntarily waive your right and produce your ID for a myriad of reason, but I am not in that category. The casino can ask, demand all it wants and I would either keep going or keep going and say, “have a nice day”.
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To all questioning if this us sound advice insofar as whether or not to produce ID, it is! EVERY working girl knows not to if asked and to promptly head toward an exit while politely declining. I usually say something along the lines of “I left it in the car, would you like to come along with me so I can get it?” They NEVER take you up on that offer. But everything that the poster said is true. I go by the metric that if you see a guard materialize ANYWHERE nearby–at the most 20 feet(common sense approach I acquired by just applying how far away the average person can affectively watch you) that guard is there for YOU. If they are not in a typical place for survellience(by the door or regular spots you’d assume they’re supposed to be) they are there for YOU. Most of their movement is intended to be specific as with any type of patrol so if one happens to be meandering nearby with any purposeful reason, they are there for YOU. If they stop at any time to speak into their radio that doesn’t result in them moving away, they are their for YOU. ANY cursory glance in your direction(even the best at remaining poker faced about the whole ideal) means they are watching YOU. Even though the rules may be a bit different when they are seeking out APs, the general idea is the same: Know where you’re at. Know where THEY’RE at. And if you can avoid being ID’d take every precaution in order to not give it to them. Even if you don’t, YES, they still have ways to identify you IF you are hot, but why make it even easier for them to POSITIVELY identify you and have your ACTUAL government information in a database that they can use it at their disposal? The thought alone should scare you. These guards are private citizens. That’s how casinos skirt the law of detainment, unreasonable search and seizure and general legal liability as far as constitutional rights. That means that generally, there are no rules to which they have to play by with this information and if you don’t believe these casinos are crooked, I don’t know what to tell you.
OF course, I always question the legality of them being able to transmit identifying information to third parties even between properties. After getting a trespass “warning” citation I noticed they somehow had my SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER of which I never provided to them :-/. I guess that’s a different argument for a different day. But security guards are much like roaches: If you see one, it’s pretty much safe to say you got a problem. But I like to think of them like the thought process surrounding AP:
Anything with a human element can be beaten. That includes the goons and GED graduates they hire for these $13 an hour security positions here in Vegas.
When in doubt about producing identification, just ask any hooker. Its a bad idea.
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“Just tell them you were on your way out already and just leave! Don’t give ID!”
I had this situation happen last week after doing some machine AP. A few minutes after I was done and in a whole different part of the casino, a single guard asked for ID. I did exactly what is quoted above and left. Luckily, I was heading in the direction of an exit, so my departure didn’t look suspicious. I only heard him on his radio once saying that I was leaving. I don’t know how far he followed me, but I assume it was up to the exit door.
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Thanks for posting this
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I got asked for ID last night but legitimately didn’t have it. I’m a slot player and although the thought of hitting a handpay on the days I don’t have it are a little nerve wracking, I usually don’t stress since my bankroll is usually just 300 bucks and I assume there are contingency plans in place for people who hit but cant produce in the moment. They claimed it was because I looked young. This was a day before my 29th birthday and while I do have a boyish look since I cant grow a beard,nobody would peg me under 24 or so. I mean I guess its kinda odd some guy by himself playing slots so late at night but the whole thing was just annoying. Got the whole “have to have id to be here” speech and told him I was on the way out. Some lady came and escorted me to the elevator and I decided to just spend the rest of my cash in the smoke free room by the exit but after taking one step in I realized theyre prolly still watching me and turned around and left.
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As a Security Officer in Reno this is the most conspiracy driven thing I can imagine. I ask for 20 to 30 IDs per night! Normally it’s because they look like a Trespasser, under age, loitering, or a guest has notified me that they had done something wrong. In all cases but the trespassers it’s usually just a 1 minute convoy about what’s going on, and your on your merry way. Previous trespassers are either readvised or arrested depending on how long ago you were advised. We are required to update our dispatch of the situation so If something does go wrong they know where I am. We also keep a record of the name of they are doing something wrong ie sleeping, loitering, soliciting. That way we can identify repeat problems and trespass them to make our other guests stay more enjoyable, without you snoring or selling them something.
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Not giving ID in small jurisdictions is literally the worst thing you can do. By not giving ID they will immediately trespass you. By giving ID I’ve only ever been given a warning. You can’t play the dumb act AND not give ID at the same time. It’s one or the other. The latter will get you thrown out 100 percent with zero chance to ever return. Even in the invent they do decide to trespass you the best advice is to never ever sign anything. It’s your word against theirs. If they say we have on camera you giving your ID that’s never proof you were trespassed. Just refuse to sign and leave.
In small jurisdictions managers are dumb by immediately offering up your ID and players card while playing dumb will result in them questioning if maybe they got it wrong and you just like to bet odd amounts, and got lucky.
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