30 responses

  1. Kevin Lewis
    October 26, 2020

    I’m not convinced that just because a number of randomizing factors influence the outcome, the ultimate result is complete randomness. After all, wouldn’t a, say, 1% reduction in the number of sevens thrown actually be enough to confer an edge (however slight)? I think Wong did have it right. And if a second Wong confirmed his conjecture, then, well, two Wongs would definitely make a…oh, never mind.

    It’s a matter of dueling kinetic forces–one imposing order on an otherwise random process (the shooter’s imparting of force along the rotational axis and making the speed and target of the throw consistent), and the other imparting a randomness to the outcome (the pyramids). I don’t see how the latter would necessarily completely negate the former.

    Reply

    • Bryce Carlson
      November 6, 2020

      You’re right Kevin in that it does come down to two competing forces, one (precision shooting) imposing order and attempting to reduce entropy, and the other (the physics of the game) imposing randomness and increasing entropy. And although logical arguments about the randomizing powers of kinetic energy, dice interaction with the table and the back-wall pyramids, as well as the limitations of human capability are all very persuasive arguments that precision shooting cannot overcome the randomizing physics of the game, by themselves they are not proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that AP craps is impossible. That’s why legit researchers have relied most heavily on the analyses of slow-motion videos of precision shooters throwing the dice on regulation craps tables, as well as the results of expert precision shooters tossing the dice a statistically significant number of times under real-world conditions, to verify their theoretical conclusions about the game. And, as I mentioned in the article, such studies have demonstrated rather conclusively that AP casino craps is not possible. Now, compare this scientific approach to the anecdotal claims of the so-called dice pros. One argument is based on math, science, reason and evidence, and the other is based on conjectures, anecdotal stories and wishful thinking. Which one you choose to believe is up to you. Bryce Carlson

      Reply

  2. Mike Alexakis
    October 26, 2020

    It is nuts to “think” a dice shooter can manipulate the game, we are human beings, not robots, and even robots would be subject to conditions… The lure of craps is the money behind the pass or don’t pass lines to the intellectual gambler (oxymoron alert), its the closest one will ever get to the actual odds in the entire casino. The front of the line money is inexorably house tilted, that is why I only play five dollar craps, they try and tell me its only a five dollar difference, but it means the world to a hit and run player like me. I schedule my craps endeavors on my Las Vegas vacations, no more than two tries a day for me, I always buy in a hundred dollars, and I play the pass line with come bets, its a very fast playing “strategy” I realize, but my goal is to win big, not play a long time and get bleeded out by the house advantage. Craps is a game where you try and beat the odds, and if you succeed you get handsomely rewarded. If I end up with one decent crap table run, my vacation is boosted, there is nothing quite like hot dice, I have at times gone several vacations without having a nice run, it just is what it is. I play live poker very seriously, I use every single ounce of patience, fortitude, honesty, and competitive instinct I have, and I go over every play in my head after I am done, its the only way to gain an advantage. I play craps for fun, because it is fun…

    Reply

    • Bryce Carlson
      November 6, 2020

      Right, I agree Mike. Casino craps can be fun entertainment that adds to the enjoyment of a town like Vegas — as long as you realize that in the end you’re going to pay for that fun.

      Reply

  3. gene hart
    October 26, 2020

    I have been in the business over 35 years and are dismayed how the betting on props has increased greatly over the years. #1 it increases the casino win exponential, and #2 it slows the game, which was a lot faster in the old days, to a crawl. Also hardly anyone takes advantage of full odds on line bets.

    Reply

  4. Jeff
    October 26, 2020

    Thank you for such an entertaining physics article. I don’t remember any of my college physics texts being as interesting.

    Reply

    • Cassini
      October 27, 2020

      I agree- this was a very well written article.

      Reply

      • Bryce Carlson
        November 6, 2020

        Thank you, Cassini!

        Reply

    • Bryce Carlson
      November 6, 2020

      Thanks, Jeff, glad you enjoyed it!

      Reply

  5. Bradley Peterson
    October 27, 2020

    Very interesting and it is more than enough for me to believe I will never have a true edge (I never really did think that I did). I’m still not convinced that my friend Ron doesn’t or can’t. Those examples in the article don’t actually talk about what Ron does. His 2 methods aren’t discussed. 1 method is where he traps a die in the corner to peg it on the known access so you don’t have 2 variables. The 2nd is just touching the back wall with no use of the pyramids. His method doesn’t hinge on the concept that both die have equal force and velocity at time of release and are counting on them to be consistent between the 2 dice. Certainly a good article and opens up many reasons to rethink the approach.

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    • Bryce Carlson
      November 6, 2020

      Sliding (rotation around the z axis only) and/or pinning (trapping) one or both dice is considered outright cheating by the casinos because it “alters the elements of chance, method of selection, or criteria which determine the outcome of a game” (NRS 465.083). Do it once and the pit will caution you. Do it again and they’ll warn you to knock it off. Do it a third time and they won’t let you shoot the dice any more. Keep returning and they’ll back you off and eventually trespass you. Though effective, this is not a viable strategy.

      Reply

  6. LC Larry
    October 27, 2020

    As long as there continues to be gambling anywhere in this world, the will be hucksters selling their snake oil.

    Reply

    • Bryce Carlson
      November 6, 2020

      True dat 😉

      Reply

  7. Blitzkrieg
    October 28, 2020

    To receive a winning payout in craps the dice DO NOT have to hit the backwall pyramids! After so many tosses that don’t hit the back wall the boxman will warn the shooter to hit the backwall. I am a believer that the dice can be manipulated to produce a certain outcome but it is very difficult to do because the middle and ring fingers are not the exact length of the index finger on the shooters hand. That right there can cause different pitches, speed, and uneven rotations to occur when the dice are released. One could use the casino felt to even up those 3 fingers before gripping the dice before a throw but it still may not be a perfect release. Can a deck of cards be manipulated? If the casino is so worried about the dice hitting the back wall then why do they collect losing bets when a 7 is rolled after the come-out point is established and the shooter doesn’t hit the back wall? I’ve thrown the dice enough in a casino to know that I can toss them with forward momentum and actually make both dice come back towards me once they hit the felt/slab instead of hitting the pyramids. That right there shows that the dice can be manipulated just like a crooked dealer can manipulate a deck of cards to turn the odds in their favor to give them an ever so slight advantage.

    Another factor that can cause chaos when releasing the dice is finger grease on the dice, fingers, and thumb. Craps is a communal game and every shooter touches the dice with their greasy fingers. The grime and grease on peoples finger tips remains on the dice and can cause the dice to slightly stick to the fingers thus changing the pitch and speed when tossing the dice. How many times have you looked at the dice when passed your way and you could see other peoples finger prints all over them?

    Perhaps a type of special ring could be crafted which when worn on the index, middle, and ring fingers could somehow make the middle and ring fingers more even with the index finger tip when gripping the dice. It wouldn’t be a cheating device, just a piece of jewelry kinda similar to a set of brass knuckles that is just worn on 3 fingers only.

    Reply

    • Mike Alexakis
      October 29, 2020

      The chips sitting on the table influence all rolls, the shooter has no control over their placement or their profile…

      Reply

      • Blitzkrieg
        November 4, 2020

        Chips only influence dice only if they come into contact with one another. Other peoples chips on the opposite end of the table don’t always come into play. Dice don’t have to hit the back wall in order for a payout to occur in craps. Dice can be thrown in the casino and they can stop exactly where they land on a craps table with forward momentum/velocity.

        Craps can be beaten. Look at what happened at the Bellagio a few years back involving craps. Do you think stuff like that only happens in Vegas? Hah! The problem with the Bellagio crew is that they got too greedy and their greed got them caught. The worst fear that the casino should fear on a craps table is their own employees robbing them. I’m sure the Bellagio crew wasn’t the first and I’m sure there are many crooked craps crews out there who still continue the craft. In my opinion craps dealers are some of the most unethical employees that work for the casino from what I’ve seen and experienced in casinos.

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      • LC Larry
        November 4, 2020

        “Beaten” and “stolen from” have 2 different meanings. Same thing when I see thiefs being called cheaters. Theifs outright steal. Cheats can still lose.

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      • Blitzkrieg
        November 10, 2020

        Money leaving the casino’s tables is beating the house. The busted up Bellagio crew can be called many names but they beat the game of craps and their employer, the casino took a loss because that money was being spent. It’s no doubt that they played an unethical and illegal game but that’s what happens when the prisoners get to run the jail. It’s funny to poke fun and laugh at cheats that get caught.

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      • Bryce Carlson
        November 6, 2020

        Cheating is not beating. The Bellagio caper was an insider scam involving some of the pit crew making payoffs on phantom “hop bets.” They’re now all in prison serving up to 10 years each. Plenty of time to rethink their strategy.

        Reply

      • Blitzkrieg
        November 10, 2020

        The Bellagio crew definitely has time to rethink their strategy. Maybe they’ll be allowed to touch a deck of cards while they’re in the slammer. The casinos will probably rehire such dealers but they’ll be working in the kitchen or at the poker tables after they get out of prison.
        Cheating is beating Bryce. If I’m in a poker game and two players are swapping hand information and they’re beating the table and me than their cheating is beating. In such a case hopefully someone would be wise enough to notice the cheating but proving it can be difficult in such a situation. If the Bellagio crew didn’t slip up and get caught by an honest employee they would still be up to their tricks.

        Reply

      • randall88888
        November 24, 2020

        Cheaters never win and winners never cheat. A lesson taught to me by my 9 th grade teacher even though I wasn’t cheating she flunked me out. I was just being a class clown & she was hot, but non the less a lesson learned. I had a crush on her & later went to college after being A flunky. Getting an A in Physics F=MA, Force = Mass x Acceleration. kinetic energy=, moving energy. If you bet the pass line & two come bets & quit after three Seven outs with max free odds the casino will still have a .008% edge which is almost like flipping a coin and getting heads half the time. So don’t cheat &have fun.

        Reply

      • Bryce Carlson
        November 6, 2020

        Yes, in addition to everything else, stacked checks are another potentially randomizing factor.

        Reply

    • Bryce Carlson
      November 6, 2020

      No casino will allow a shooter to short throw (not hit the back-wall pyramids) often enough to make a statistically meaningful difference. And even if they did (which they don’t), the pyramids are really just insurance for the casinos. For all the reasons discussed in the article, the dice are sufficiently randomized even without contact with the pyramids.

      Reply

  8. BW
    November 24, 2020

    Only idiots believe they can “influence” the outcome when throwing dice.

    Reply

    • GORDON A MEYER
      September 2, 2021

      There is a vast difference between controlling the dice or influencing and having a shot that allows you to take advantage of what the dice are doing. If you take a look at all the research which has been done on dice
      control, it all extends what is possible using absolutes. The dice only can do this, as a thrower you are
      exactly the same everyday and it cant beat the casino and on and on.
      Yet every player has been at the table when the dice outcomes are not what the math of the game indicates it should have been. 6 & 8 was hitting all night, just about all the sevens seen were 3/4 4/3 or 6/1 1/6. so on.
      Lots of sevens on the come out, lots of craps on the come out. There is variance.

      Now look at this information from above
      Now, for Wong’s double-pitch avoidance conjecture to be potentially valid, the correlated rotation assumption, above, is particularly important with respect to pitch. This is because if pitch between the two dice remains largely correlated (though not necessarily on axis), then, even though induced roll and yaw are effectively randomized (though still correlated), double pitches resulting in 7s should, as Wong asserts, occur less often than random.

      Now ask yourself a question, if you are shooting out of a hardway set, and are getting way to many double pitches…why in the heck would you want to want to change that ??????? that is influence that is happening
      from the shot you have at that time….I dont worry about my shot, i change the set to take ADAVANTAGE of the influence i have right now.

      Way to many craps shooters demand or try to demand that they want to indicate to the dice what the
      outcomes will be, instead of understanding that no human being is the same from day to day or week to week yet alone from table to table. A shooter always has influence, the more consistent the shot, the more often
      you can see it.

      Only an idiot wants to change influence because it is not what he was expecting

      dicesetter

      Reply

  9. Jamie Perry
    November 25, 2020

    Well written and researched, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

    Reply

  10. Dreamer
    December 6, 2020

    I was one of the people on Green Chip who disagreed with Wong in his early days of craps AP experimenting.
    My disagreements are actually mentioned in Wongs Craps book.
    They cover most of the same ground Bryce has covered in this article.

    What I will say is that in my opinion it possibly only applies to full size tables!

    Reply

  11. Ac V I T
    December 22, 2020

    True, even when betting max odds on the don’t pass.

    Reply

  12. Degen Eric
    December 25, 2020

    This is why you should just have fun with the game, find the lowest minimums, and make conservative bets. Again, have FUN with the game. Anyone that enters into any negative EV game, and takes it seriously, is not thinking clearly.

    Reply

  13. Troy Bakewell
    December 27, 2020

    It’s interesting to come upon this topic. A couple of years ago I decided to investigate this very subject and I purchase a full size casino craps table and purchased a camera capable of recording images at 240 frames per second. It became very obvious to me after watching a few dozen tests of trying to get the dice to kiss off of each other (thus trying to influence one of them into being not random) that there is absolutely no way to beat craps.

    I wish like hell I had saved my videos and posted them to youtube. It was fascinating to watch them bounce around in super slow motion. I’d bet my last dollar that nobody can ultimately control dice in anyway whatsoever after seeing what I saw, even without having to hit the diamonds on the back wall.

    These cameras have come significantly in price now if someone wants to try it out for themselves. Some can be had for under $500 now.

    Anyway. Just thought I would share my experience.

    Reply

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