In early June, Bonnie and I were at a square dancing workshop and there was this guy, Scott from Alabama, who showed up. He had played a few days before at the Colossus event in the World Series of Poker, did well enough to get his money back plus $500, and was killing time before his flight back home. He had arranged his stay through the last day of the Colossus in case he made it that far. He hadn’t, but that was why he was still in town. Square dancing events are publicized if you know where to look, so he found us and danced. He was very welcome.
The Colossus is a $565 buy-in tournament with starting flights over several days. Re-entries are allowed. He was very proud of the fact that he cashed in his first WSOP event, which gave him the confidence to come back next year. He had to tell me, of course, about the hand he blew out on and that he was ahead until his opponent paired on the river.
I asked him if he had considered re-entering and he said, “No. If I’m not a good enough player to win on my first try, I’m not going to throw good money after bad.”
I told him that I didn’t know anything about his personal bankroll, but that didn’t make any sense to me. He probably had $500 in expenses to get to and stay in Vegas for five days. That made his first entry cost $1,065. His re-entry would cost “only” $565, or basically half price since he was already in Vegas. If the first one was a good deal for him to enter, re-entry must be a great deal. Why come back next year and pay another $1,065 and not get the same equity right now for only $565?
In any tournament with several thousand entries (there were 18,000+ entries in this year’s Colossus), there is a considerable amount of luck insofar as how long each player lasts. The hand where he blew out (in 400th place or so) could have easily happened much earlier and he would have gotten nothing at all. No less skill on his part. Just the luck of the draw.
You can’t conclude, I argued, that just because you cashed this time that you are a good player or just because you didn’t cash any particular time that you’re a bad player. No player cashes every event. Your record over a whole lot of tournaments says a lot about your skill. Your result in a single tournament says very little.
He asked if I was a poker player. I told him no, that I was a video poker player, but that I’ve been a successful gambler for several decades and believe I have some knowledge and experience about how it all works.
He informed me that since I wasn’t a poker player, I really didn’t know what I was talking about and he didn’t want to discuss it anymore. Okay. A square dancing event is mostly a social activity and if he didn’t want to “talk shop,” that was fine with me. I went over and spoke to someone else. Whether or not I could get him to agree with me was not something I cared about very much. He had never heard of me and self-professed video poker experts are not people he considers worth listening to.
But you, my reader, I do care whether you agree with me or not. I assume you accept that I am generally knowledgeable about these things or you wouldn’t be reading this blog.
This is another case of paying undue attention to short term results. This example looks a bit different in live poker than it does in video poker, but the principle is the same. Perhaps this example is easier to understand than in the ways I have expressed it previously.
Good article that is fitting with the ongoing WSOP season.
You were able to notice that Scott was not a strong minded poker player to be even worthwhile bringing up your encounters with several noteworthy poker professionals appearing as guests on Gambling With An Edge podcasts.
I do not know much about live poker, but I just heard from players that the start of most tournament revolves more luck than skill before skill transcends the luck factor near the final table. All I know is that “The Main Event” awards prizes to just the top 10 percentile of players, so it is difficult to win a prize every time like Scott expects.
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Last year it was 15% of the field that got paid out in the Main Event.
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I appreciate the information! I am out of touch with the WSOP.
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Ad hominem arguments and people who make them are lame.
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Something doesn’t jive. Looking at the results page of this tournament on wsop.com, there is no $1065 payoff. There is a $1046, $1085, $1086, $1089, and up. There is nobody named “Scott” until position 1478 and he’s from California. 400th or so place would’ve paid in excess of $3000. I think they guy was BS’ing you.
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Hopefully this guy had some room comps for the duration of his stay because if he did travel from Alabama, he paid out on travel and food expenses for several days. It’s hard to believe that a gambler would travel half way across the country to only play a single WSOP event without getting in a poker cash game somewhere.
Perhaps he was satisfied with his cash and he didn’t want to press his luck but I think he should have played another event while he was in town. Depending on how he planned his visit he could have played the first Day 1 Colossus event, and maybe the Online WSOP event while he was in Vegas and kept entry fees under $1000 for 2 events if he was on a budget to get the most out of his trip.
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This really doesn’t make much sense at all. Rebuy time in tournaments ends long before anyone is in the money. If he cashed there would be no more opportunity to rebuy available.
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I think the Colossus was different. You got down to the lesser cash prizes on day 1 before day 2 started. He could have claimed a small Day 1 prize and still rebought into Day 2 or 3.
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That makes more sense. Not a typical rebuy where you are buying back to your current position but just entering again for the start of a new flight.
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“Scott” should have looked at the rebuy in a positive light by realizing that there were only 400 players left. He started against 18,000. The odds were better than when he started even if his chip count would make it harder. But he might have taken the attitude when Bob asked him why he didn’t rebuy that he hadn’t considered it and he didn’t want to look foolish to Bob and/or it was all too late at that point anyway.
But as was noted, he could have gotten into another tournament or played any of 100 cash games.
Also as was mentioned above, his story might have been fabricated or somewhat embellished. You know how gamblers are.
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Also consider that the guy was a newbie to Vegas and the WSOP. It takes awhile to correctly consider several of the things brought up by people here.
I don’t know, but it’s possible my words will resonate over time to him and he could conclude later, “that guy might have been right.” It takes more time than people realize to become competent.
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I think the Colossus was different. You got down to the lesser cash prizes on day 1 before day 2 started. He could have claimed a small Day 1 prize and still rebought into Day 2 or 3.
And when he bought into Day 2 or Day 3, there would still be a full field of several thousand players. The 18,000 figure was the sum of all of the starting flights. You don’t rebuy into a “400 players left” position.
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I definitely know that players can’t rebuy into the Colossus with 400 players left, that’s not happening. 🙂 All the other players would all be chipped up and a player isn’t coming in with $5K to get blinded out/taken out.
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You’re missing something important. When you rebuy in events like that, you get the same number of chips as you did on your initial buyin. However, ALL the chips are still in play–but divided among fewer opponents! So if you buy in after half the field has been eliminated (and has presumably not rebought) you’re starting over with a stack that is only 50% of the average–a much worse position than you had for your original buyin. Yes, there’s the counterbalance of your having greater equity for your rebuy than for your original buyin–but trying to win money in a tournament with a half-of-average stack is daunting, to say the least.
But my point is, you were wrong to say that if it made sense to enter in the first place, it made sense to rebuy. The numbers and circumstances are MUCH different in each case. Another consideration: say that half the players are gone when you make your rebuy decision. Now, there’s a lot of luck involved, sure, but you could make the case that the 50% survivors are, on average, a tougher crowd that the original pool of entrants was. You’re committing to beat those people who have survived so far, and with a half stack at that. Not the same decision as that to enter the event in the first place!
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If this Scott guy or any other player played in the first flight of the Colossus and busted out it would only make sense to me if they did a re-buy into a different starting flight if they still wanted to play in that event, unless the blind levels are still low in the flight they busted out on.
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As I said above, there is nobody named Scott that got a payoff of $1065 or anywhere near there. You can read the results at wsop.com. I don’t believe the story he told Bob.
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You’re making too much of a deal over a name. A ‘name tag’ at a square dance wouldn’t necessarily have to jive with a name at a poker tournament.
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Possibly, but his “$1065” payoff doesn’t “jive.” Face the facts, the guy lied to you.
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I know when I make up elaborate poker stories, they end with me min cashing in a small buy in tournament.
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The math has already been settled by people who know “how to math”. Under the circumstances described in this article, it would be a mistake not to rebuy during the rebuy period, if a player is short-stacked or eliminated early on. This is true whether you find this task daunting or not. If you do not wish to be confronted with such a daunting prospect, it is probably wiser to avoid rebuy tournaments altogether.
Individual chips in a small stack are worth more (have more value) than individual chips (of the same denomination) in a large stack. Above, I have been parroting the arguments of Sklansky, Malmuth, and Snyder, whom I do not care to quibble with.
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I’m glad you wrote this story Bob. It reminds me of this same time last year when an older lady from a poker club I play at from time to time went to Vegas to play in Colossus II. She did pretty good and cashed in the event. She finished 415 out of the 21K plus players who entered the event. She finished much higher than I thought she would have.
After her vacation I seen her in the club and heard about her finish so I tried to talk to her about her experience because we were both playing on the same table and I was curious. I asked her what was her highest chip count while she was in the tournament and she didn’t give me an answer and kinda blew me off. It kind of upset me in a way but it didn’t matter. To me it didn’t matter what she did in Vegas, I was just looking at the player in front of me at the moment and I think of her as being a horrible player. This lady while nice and sweet couldn’t protect the sanctity of a poker game if her life depended on it.
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Couple of clarifications for the people making incorrect assumptions
Colossus is 6 flights averaging 3000 players a flight. About 100 of those players each flight move through to day 2. 450 get paid. So he could’ve gotten 400th on his flight and made approximately $500 in profit.
A rebuy after cashing in that event doesn’t face the equity issues presented earlier in this thread. Each flight is like a brand new tournament, with brand new starting stacks. It’s identical to all of the other flights. At the end of the day, the 100 from B will join the 100 from A C D E F and play day 2 with 600 players (all numbers rough estimates)
He wanted to brag about cashing his first event, didn’t want to ruin his 100% ITM rate at the wsop, and wanted to try to sound like he knew what the hell he was talking about and talk down to you for not being in the same league of awesomeness as him.
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Thanks for this clarification. And I wasn’t there, but based on many interactions with certain poker types, I’d say you nailed it on “Scott’s” mindset and motivations.
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We just got back from 10 days in Las Vegas. I am a .25 cents 9/6 jacks or better moderate player. I am sure it only seems this way to me but when I hold cards and hit the deal button the first new card seems to be the same denomination of the discarded card like 7 of hearts for a 7of spade very often. Is this just my imagination.? Thank You.
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This is not really the appropriate forum for this question. I did, however, add it to the list of questions we’ll address on future Gambling with an Edge broadcasts.
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Why did he not consider the fact that he cashed for $500 a good showing and therefore worth putting it towards another buy-in? Also, why did you not consider his win in figuring out his expenses?
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The conversation didn’t last long enough to ask him that question. Had he responded like you suggested, I would have countered that this particular $500 win was not “special.” It’s just a part of bankroll. I do not “date stamp” when I get particular hundred dollar bills.
In poker, as in video poker, I’m a very strong believer of “today’s score doesn’t matter.” Assuming, of course, that the score is “small” relative to your bankroll. And I sure hope $500 was small to him or there’s no way to justify spending $1000 to fly to Vegas and enter a tournament where he’s a long shot to cash.
The win gave him an “extra” $1,000 – $1,100 over what he would have had in his pocket if he busted out out of the money. Hopefully that just a small part of his bankroll. People who spend their win as soon as they get them usually are unable to build up a bankroll.
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I agree that he should have bought in again. He probably doesn’t know the purpose of gambling is to make a profit.
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Bob Dancer 4 Life!!!
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