[Editor’s Note: The following in-depth treatment of dice setting in craps is written by the author of Blackjack for Blood, one of the all-time classic how-to blackjack books, still relevant and popular more than 30 years since it was first published. Bryce Carlson is one of the most successful pro blackjack players active in the game today and in this post, he focuses his keen attention on the controversy of controlling the outcome of tossing dice on the crap table.]
Blackjack, especially winning blackjack, is a game for introverts — a little OCD and a touch of Asperger’s wouldn’t hurt, either. It just takes a special person to sit at the tables for endless hours, counting down the game, all the while mesmerized by the circus of whirling cards and dancing chips. Yeah, it takes a special person, and it’s not for everyone.
So, it’s not surprising that many people prefer craps. The variety of bets, the boisterous comradery, the sense of team success when a point is made, and the shared commiseration when the shooter 7s out, all make for a really fun game. The problem is they can also make for a really expensive game, too. This problem has led many researchers — some legit, some not — to try to develop winning strategies for craps based on dice control, just as researchers have developed winning strategies for blackjack based on card counting.
Now, all this research has resulted in a number of supposedly winning craps systems that are sold in books and videos, and in pricey weekend seminars available wherever casino craps is played. But do any of these systems actually work? Well — spoiler alert — the answer is no, they don’t.
But why? Why don’t they work? They all involve setting the dice in special ways, then throwing them in a specific, practiced toss that, if done correctly, should definitely yield an edge for the shooter. So, what’s the problem? The problem, as revealed by slow-motion videos of dice “pros” in action, is that the inevitable slightly uneven release of the dice that occurs with every toss, compounded by contact with the back-wall pyramids, cause the dice to chaotically twist and spin to such a degree that randomness cannot be overcome, even with the most practiced throw. The precision necessary is way beyond any human capability, and the required contact with the back-wall pyramids ensures a random result. So, there you have it, and if you’re willing to take my word for it, you can now set this article aside and head back to the blackjack tables. But if it’s proof you want, and if you’re willing to dive deep, then take a deep breath and read on …
If only Isaac Newton had been right, if only he’d been right, then maybe, just maybe, there might really be such a thing as Advantage Play casino craps. But he wasn’t, and there isn’t. And therein lies a fascinating tale that is worth a little trip down history lane.
For, you see, at its core, the potential to beat craps comes down to the nature of kinetic energy. But Newton didn’t believe in energy, kinetic or otherwise. For him there was no such thing! For Newton, there was mass and there was motion. And that was it. Newton knew that unless acted upon by an outside force bodies in motion stayed in motion, and bodies at rest stayed at rest. So, Newton reasoned that when an outside force acted on a body at rest to create motion it had to impart an “impetus” to the body which overcame the body’s inherent inertia. This force imparted an impetus, P, sufficient to move a mass, m, to a velocity, v. Hence, the impetus (now called “momentum”) must be equal to the product of the mass times the velocity, or P = mv. And that was all there was to it. But Newton, perhaps the greatest genius of all time, had a bitter rival of almost equal genius. His name was Gottfried Leibniz. And Leibniz had a different idea. He thought there was more to motion than momentum. He said there was also a “vis viva” or “life force,” proportional to the square of the velocity, that a mass acquires when it’s accelerated to a given velocity with respect to another inertial frame. Newton countered by mocking the whole idea of a putative so-called “life force” as superstitious nonsense, and sarcastically asked Leibniz if perhaps the laying on of hands were necessary to impart this special force to masses, and, if so, did it come by the power of God or perhaps Beelzebub. Leibniz replied that, like everything else, it came by the power of God, and if Newton doubted that perhaps he should take it up with the Pope, or maybe the Archbishop of Canterbury. Oops. Touché Leibniz. And so back and forth it went, year after year, such that during their lifetimes this bitter little tête-à-tête remained unabated, undecided and unresolved — just one more schlong slam in a long list of schlong slams by two of the greatest minds and brittlest egos in the entire history of great minds and brittle egos.
And then, in 1738, several years after both Newton and Leibniz had died, along came a rather comely young minx by the name of Mme Gabrielle Émilie du Châtelet. Now, Mme du Châtelet, who happened to be the wife of the Marquis du Châtelet, was not only a libertine deluxe of impressive imagination, but she was also the mistress of Voltaire, several of his friends, and a gifted young woman who somehow amid all the frolicking found time to be an accomplished natural philosopher, as well. This was definitely not your everyday wench, royalty or not. Now, Mme du Châtelet was a keen student of both Leibniz and Newton (in fact her French translation of Newton’s Principia is still the standard), and she marveled that this dispute regarding the fundamental nature of masses in motion had gone on for decades without a resolution. So, she decided to set up an experiment to settle the matter once and for all. She reasoned that in an inelastic collision of a rigid undeformable mass with a non-rigid deformable one all of Newton’s momentum or Leibniz’s vis viva would be absorbed by the deformable mass, and the degree of deformation would determine who was right. So she set up a simple but elegant experiment in which a small iron cannonball was dropped from a height of several feet into a bucket of potter’s clay and the depth of the depression left by the ball was measured. Then, using Newton’s gravity equations, she dropped the ball from a greater height, such that the velocity at impact was calculated to be exactly twice the velocity of the first drop, and, again, measured the depth of the depression left by the ball. She then reasoned that since Newton’s “impetus” was linear (mv) and Leibniz’s “vis viva” was exponential (mv^2), if the second depression were twice as deep as the first one, then Newton was right. But, if the second depression were four times as deep as the first one, then Leibniz would be right. So, she performed the experiment and measured the results and, voilà, the second depression was, indeed, four times as deep as the first one. Leibniz had been right all along. Poor Leibniz, he had waited a lifetime to beat Newton at something important, and when he finally did he wasn’t alive to enjoy it. Sometimes, the gods really do have a twisted sense of humor. Anyway, today we call Leibniz’s vis viva “kinetic energy,” and we describe it by the equation E = (1/2)mv^2. Leibniz would be proud.
Okay, so why is it so important that Newton was wrong and Leibniz was right? It’s important because it says that a small change in velocity results in a large change in kinetic energy, which means that when, say, two dice are thrown simultaneously with only a small difference in initial velocity, the differences in their behavior at impact will be large. Very large. Processes in nature tend to either damp or amp as they propagate through space and time. In those that damp, small differences in initial conditions (the Δ of the initial complex Lagrangians) become even smaller over time. But in those that amp, small differences in initial conditions grow large over time. And because kinetic energy is an exponential function of the square of velocity, tossing dice at craps is an amping process, whereby small differences in initial conditions result in large chaotic differences in the final results.
Now, over the last five years, a number of serious, legitimate researchers, including Stanford Wong, myself, and others, have sought to determine the truth about so-called AP craps. Some of these researchers have hoped to show that craps could be beaten, and some have just been intellectually curious. But, regardless of motive, all of them have diligently searched for the truth. Now, because simulations of precision shooting at casino craps are not feasible, these researchers have generally utilized carefully monitored casino sessions of statistically significant duration with recognized “professional” p-shooters, as well as slow-motion videos of such experts throwing the dice on regulation craps tables, to obtain valid useful data. The results of such studies have been telling. Virtually without exception, with the monitored “professional” p-shooters the larger the number of trials the more random the results appear, with each die face (and the 7s to rolls ratio) converging on a random frequency of 1 in 6. And with the slow-motion videos, it is obvious to everyone viewing them that, no matter how good the throw might look at normal speed, in slow motion it is apparent that a huge amount of uncontrollable randomizing occurs. In fact, in February, 2009, Wong stated in a post on the bj21.com craps page, in referring to the results of slow-motion video studies of skillful throws, “The truth is, there is much bouncing around, even in dice tosses that look great at real-time speed. Watching slow-mo video of dice tosses can be discouraging, and can be harmful to sales of dice books and to sales of dice-tossing instruction.” No one viewing such videos would ever disagree with that. So, while it is true that no one study is ever completely conclusive, over a five-year period the evidence has piled up as study after study by capable researchers has consistently pointed to only one conclusion: Real-world casino craps cannot be legitimately beaten — by anyone, anywhere, at any time. And the exponential, amping nature of kinetic energy is the fundamental reason why.
To see this more clearly consider this analogy: Suppose a world-class MLB pitcher were told to throw curve balls one after another such that each successive pair of curve balls must be thrown at the same speed to within a small fraction of a mile per hour, and have the same curving trajectory within a small fraction of an inch. No pitcher could ever do this, or would ever even want to, for that matter. It’s not humanly possible. But that is exactly the kind of control a p-shooter would have to have to have any chance of influencing the dice at all. And even if it were possible, which it isn’t, it STILL wouldn’t be enough! Why? Consider this: The theory of so-called AP craps is built on two plausible-sounding conjectures. The first one, promoted by Frank Scoblete and Golden Touch Craps, says that if the dice are set properly, thrown on axis with synchronicity, and just “kiss” the pyramid-studded back wall lightly after landing, it is possible to exert a sufficient degree of control of the dice to achieve a positive ev. We’ll call this the GTC conjecture. The second one, promoted by Wong, says that if the dice are set properly, and initially thrown on axis with synchronicity, even if they do hit the pyramid-studded back wall hard, a degree of “correlation” between the two dice can survive that is sufficient to achieve a positive ev. We’ll call this the Wong conjecture.
Let’s consider the GTC conjecture first. On the face of it, it sounds reasonable. It’s definitely a plausible-sounding conjecture. If the dice are set properly, and stay on axis with synchronicity right to the end, there is no question that sufficient control to achieve a positive ev would result. That’s why it’s so seductive. It sounds doable, if difficult. It sounds like all it takes is practice. But, as it turns out, it takes a hell of a lot more than that. Slow-motion studies of expert throws have repeatedly shown that even if the dice apparently remain on axis with synchronicity right down to the landing (something extraordinarily difficult to do), if the dice differ by even 0.25” in their rotational synchronicity at landing then, because of the exponential amping nature of kinetic energy, the combination of elastic (rebounding) and inelastic (skidding) collisions with the table will impart a huge amount of different rotations across the x, y, and z axes (pitch, roll, and yaw) between the two dice. Such tosses look great at normal speed, but in slow motion, even on a relatively “dead” table surface, their true random nature can be seen and measured. As with a pitcher trying to throw successive pairs of identical curve balls, the precision necessary to do it with dice is beyond human capability. Period. And that’s not even counting the pyramid-studded back wall! When you factor in the pyramids, the whole concept becomes laughable.
Now, let’s take a look at the last best hope for AP casino craps, namely, the Wong conjecture. Wong is a bright fellow, and he recognized from his early dice studies that maintaining on-axis synchronicity was a pipe dream. So, still hopeful that craps could be beaten, he developed a more sophisticated theory that posits that, although the dice do not remain on axis with synchronicity after contact with the table and back-wall pyramids, there is a surviving correlation between the two dice’s rotations that can potentially reduce double-pitch 7s resulting in a positive ev for the player. Specifically, Wong asserted that although the pyramids scramble pitch, roll and yaw such that the axis that each die finally assumes will be effectively randomized, a surviving correlation between the two dice may still remain because (1) the law of conservation of energy, (2) the assertion that both dice start off with the same initial kinetic energy, and (3) the assertion that translational kinetic energy is not preferentially converted into rotational kinetic energy mean the number of rotations the two dice undergo across their x, y, and z axes, respectively, will remain closely correlated. In Wong’s own words: “Ideally, the dice are still on axis and have equal speed and equal rotation when they hit the pyramids. The pyramids then randomize the axis of rotation of each die, and reduce the energy of each die approximately equally. As they leave the wall the dice have random and independent axes of rotation, but will rotate approximately the same number of times before coming to rest. Being approximately identical in position and motion when they hit the pyramids, and then rotating approximately the same number of times after hitting the pyramids, the end result should be a scarcity of double pitches.”
Now, for Wong’s double-pitch avoidance conjecture to be potentially valid, the correlated rotation assumption, above, is particularly important with respect to pitch. This is because if pitch between the two dice remains largely correlated (though not necessarily on axis), then, even though induced roll and yaw are effectively randomized (though still correlated), double pitches resulting in 7s should, as Wong asserts, occur less often than random.
Unfortunately, however, whatever its theoretical validity, in practice there are two fatal flaws with Wong’s conjecture. The first one is the fallacy that both dice start off synchronized with the same initial kinetic energy. They don’t. Numerous empirical studies have shown that there is always a slight difference in the initial velocities and axial alignments of the two dice and, as previously discussed, because of the exponential amping nature of kinetic energy, these small differences result in big differences in the final results. And secondly, and just as important, the assertion that pitch remains largely correlated during the toss because translational kinetic energy is either not converted into rotational kinetic energy, or, if it is, it is converted to the same degree in both dice, is manifestly false. This is easily verified when slow-motion videos of expert tosses on regulation craps tables are examined and analyzed. For example, one die, say, bounces up from the table and squarely hits the base of one of the pyramids and rebounds back with little to no conversion of translational kinetic energy into rotational kinetic energy; the other die, however, bounces up and hits another pyramid, say, a little off center or a little higher up from its base and a significant amount of translational kinetic energy gets converted into (primarily roll and yaw) rotational kinetic energy. Anyone watching slow-motion videos of expert throws knows that this kind of scenario occurs on virtually every toss, and when it does any surviving rotational correlation potentially reducing double-pitch 7s is lost to randomness because one die ends up with significantly less translational kinetic energy than the other die, which results in less pitch rotation (and more roll/yaw rotation and skidding) than the other die when it lands and rolls to a final random result.
So, with pitch, roll, yaw and rotational/translational kinetic energy effectively randomized by the table and the back-wall pyramids, the assumptions underpinning Wong’s correlation conjecture, just as with the GTC on-axis conjecture, do not stand up to either theoretical analysis or the empirical evidence, and, consequently, no surviving correlation between the two dice reducing double-pitch 7s can be assumed to survive a legal toss in real-world casino craps. And, again, extensive empirical studies over a five-year period back this conclusion up.
And finally, in April 2011, in a tacit admission that he had been wrong in believing casino craps could be legitimately beaten, Wong removed craps from the list of “Beatable Casino Games” on his popular bj21.com website, and also removed the “Craps” discussion page from his site, as well. In addition, a few months later, in October 2011, in an interview about craps on Bob Dancer’s popular KLAV radio program, “Gambling With an Edge,” Wong admitted that, instead of craps, “if you want to get serious about making money from casinos … get into blackjack or get into video poker or get into poker.” That pretty much says it all.
So, blame it on Leibniz, blame it on God, or blame it on the exponential amping nature of kinetic energy, but real-world casino craps cannot be beaten. Period. But, hey, cheer up, maybe in another universe, far, far away Newton was actually right ;-).
Now, compare this modern casino game to the primitive WWII-era “blanket-roll” game, where the consensus is that a highly-skilled virtuoso p-shooter could, indeed, potentially gain a winning edge. What is apparent in such a comparison is that the two things that prevent beating the modern casino game — namely, the exponential amping nature of kinetic energy, and the randomizing power of the back-wall pyramids — were absent or neutralized in the blanket-roll game. In the blanket-roll game there were no back-wall pyramids, and the soft, relatively high-friction army-style blanket was perfect for burning off kinetic energy very rapidly, thus effectively neutralizing kinetic energy’s amping nature. This makes for two very different games, one potentially beatable, and the other not. They say casinos are born at night, but clearly not last night, as they have very effectively eliminated the exploitable weaknesses in the primitive blanket-roll game.
Now, even though all this means that so-called AP casino craps is left without any credible operational theory or supporting evidence, whatsoever, justifying a belief in its validity, I know none of it is going to have the slightest effect on the so-called AP craps gurus. They’ll just keep on beatin’ the drums, pounding out that voodoo vibe for their faithful fans who are all too happy for a rationalization, any rationalization, to justify their inveterate gambling habits. And does any of it prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that casino craps can’t be beaten? No, it doesn’t. We’ll probably never have that kind of proof. But it does prove beyond a reasonable doubt that casino craps is unbeatable, and in an existential world that is enough for reasonable men. So, as for me, I’ll leave the snake oil to the snakes.

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I’m not convinced that just because a number of randomizing factors influence the outcome, the ultimate result is complete randomness. After all, wouldn’t a, say, 1% reduction in the number of sevens thrown actually be enough to confer an edge (however slight)? I think Wong did have it right. And if a second Wong confirmed his conjecture, then, well, two Wongs would definitely make a…oh, never mind.
It’s a matter of dueling kinetic forces–one imposing order on an otherwise random process (the shooter’s imparting of force along the rotational axis and making the speed and target of the throw consistent), and the other imparting a randomness to the outcome (the pyramids). I don’t see how the latter would necessarily completely negate the former.
It is nuts to “think” a dice shooter can manipulate the game, we are human beings, not robots, and even robots would be subject to conditions… The lure of craps is the money behind the pass or don’t pass lines to the intellectual gambler (oxymoron alert), its the closest one will ever get to the actual odds in the entire casino. The front of the line money is inexorably house tilted, that is why I only play five dollar craps, they try and tell me its only a five dollar difference, but it means the world to a hit and run player like me. I schedule my craps endeavors on my Las Vegas vacations, no more than two tries a day for me, I always buy in a hundred dollars, and I play the pass line with come bets, its a very fast playing “strategy” I realize, but my goal is to win big, not play a long time and get bleeded out by the house advantage. Craps is a game where you try and beat the odds, and if you succeed you get handsomely rewarded. If I end up with one decent crap table run, my vacation is boosted, there is nothing quite like hot dice, I have at times gone several vacations without having a nice run, it just is what it is. I play live poker very seriously, I use every single ounce of patience, fortitude, honesty, and competitive instinct I have, and I go over every play in my head after I am done, its the only way to gain an advantage. I play craps for fun, because it is fun…
I have been in the business over 35 years and are dismayed how the betting on props has increased greatly over the years. #1 it increases the casino win exponential, and #2 it slows the game, which was a lot faster in the old days, to a crawl. Also hardly anyone takes advantage of full odds on line bets.
Thank you for such an entertaining physics article. I don’t remember any of my college physics texts being as interesting.
Very interesting and it is more than enough for me to believe I will never have a true edge (I never really did think that I did). I’m still not convinced that my friend Ron doesn’t or can’t. Those examples in the article don’t actually talk about what Ron does. His 2 methods aren’t discussed. 1 method is where he traps a die in the corner to peg it on the known access so you don’t have 2 variables. The 2nd is just touching the back wall with no use of the pyramids. His method doesn’t hinge on the concept that both die have equal force and velocity at time of release and are counting on them to be consistent between the 2 dice. Certainly a good article and opens up many reasons to rethink the approach.
As long as there continues to be gambling anywhere in this world, the will be hucksters selling their snake oil.
I agree- this was a very well written article.
To receive a winning payout in craps the dice DO NOT have to hit the backwall pyramids! After so many tosses that don’t hit the back wall the boxman will warn the shooter to hit the backwall. I am a believer that the dice can be manipulated to produce a certain outcome but it is very difficult to do because the middle and ring fingers are not the exact length of the index finger on the shooters hand. That right there can cause different pitches, speed, and uneven rotations to occur when the dice are released. One could use the casino felt to even up those 3 fingers before gripping the dice before a throw but it still may not be a perfect release. Can a deck of cards be manipulated? If the casino is so worried about the dice hitting the back wall then why do they collect losing bets when a 7 is rolled after the come-out point is established and the shooter doesn’t hit the back wall? I’ve thrown the dice enough in a casino to know that I can toss them with forward momentum and actually make both dice come back towards me once they hit the felt/slab instead of hitting the pyramids. That right there shows that the dice can be manipulated just like a crooked dealer can manipulate a deck of cards to turn the odds in their favor to give them an ever so slight advantage.
Another factor that can cause chaos when releasing the dice is finger grease on the dice, fingers, and thumb. Craps is a communal game and every shooter touches the dice with their greasy fingers. The grime and grease on peoples finger tips remains on the dice and can cause the dice to slightly stick to the fingers thus changing the pitch and speed when tossing the dice. How many times have you looked at the dice when passed your way and you could see other peoples finger prints all over them?
Perhaps a type of special ring could be crafted which when worn on the index, middle, and ring fingers could somehow make the middle and ring fingers more even with the index finger tip when gripping the dice. It wouldn’t be a cheating device, just a piece of jewelry kinda similar to a set of brass knuckles that is just worn on 3 fingers only.
The chips sitting on the table influence all rolls, the shooter has no control over their placement or their profile…
Chips only influence dice only if they come into contact with one another. Other peoples chips on the opposite end of the table don’t always come into play. Dice don’t have to hit the back wall in order for a payout to occur in craps. Dice can be thrown in the casino and they can stop exactly where they land on a craps table with forward momentum/velocity.
Craps can be beaten. Look at what happened at the Bellagio a few years back involving craps. Do you think stuff like that only happens in Vegas? Hah! The problem with the Bellagio crew is that they got too greedy and their greed got them caught. The worst fear that the casino should fear on a craps table is their own employees robbing them. I’m sure the Bellagio crew wasn’t the first and I’m sure there are many crooked craps crews out there who still continue the craft. In my opinion craps dealers are some of the most unethical employees that work for the casino from what I’ve seen and experienced in casinos.
“Beaten” and “stolen from” have 2 different meanings. Same thing when I see thiefs being called cheaters. Theifs outright steal. Cheats can still lose.
You’re right Kevin in that it does come down to two competing forces, one (precision shooting) imposing order and attempting to reduce entropy, and the other (the physics of the game) imposing randomness and increasing entropy. And although logical arguments about the randomizing powers of kinetic energy, dice interaction with the table and the back-wall pyramids, as well as the limitations of human capability are all very persuasive arguments that precision shooting cannot overcome the randomizing physics of the game, by themselves they are not proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that AP craps is impossible. That’s why legit researchers have relied most heavily on the analyses of slow-motion videos of precision shooters throwing the dice on regulation craps tables, as well as the results of expert precision shooters tossing the dice a statistically significant number of times under real-world conditions, to verify their theoretical conclusions about the game. And, as I mentioned in the article, such studies have demonstrated rather conclusively that AP casino craps is not possible. Now, compare this scientific approach to the anecdotal claims of the so-called dice pros. One argument is based on math, science, reason and evidence, and the other is based on conjectures, anecdotal stories and wishful thinking. Which one you choose to believe is up to you. Bryce Carlson
Right, I agree Mike. Casino craps can be fun entertainment that adds to the enjoyment of a town like Vegas — as long as you realize that in the end you’re going to pay for that fun.
Thanks, Jeff, glad you enjoyed it!
Sliding (rotation around the z axis only) and/or pinning (trapping) one or both dice is considered outright cheating by the casinos because it “alters the elements of chance, method of selection, or criteria which determine the outcome of a game” (NRS 465.083). Do it once and the pit will caution you. Do it again and they’ll warn you to knock it off. Do it a third time and they won’t let you shoot the dice any more. Keep returning and they’ll back you off and eventually trespass you. Though effective, this is not a viable strategy.
True dat 😉
Yes, in addition to everything else, stacked checks are another potentially randomizing factor.
Thank you, Cassini!
Cheating is not beating. The Bellagio caper was an insider scam involving some of the pit crew making payoffs on phantom “hop bets.” They’re now all in prison serving up to 10 years each. Plenty of time to rethink their strategy.
No casino will allow a shooter to short throw (not hit the back-wall pyramids) often enough to make a statistically meaningful difference. And even if they did (which they don’t), the pyramids are really just insurance for the casinos. For all the reasons discussed in the article, the dice are sufficiently randomized even without contact with the pyramids.
Money leaving the casino’s tables is beating the house. The busted up Bellagio crew can be called many names but they beat the game of craps and their employer, the casino took a loss because that money was being spent. It’s no doubt that they played an unethical and illegal game but that’s what happens when the prisoners get to run the jail. It’s funny to poke fun and laugh at cheats that get caught.
The Bellagio crew definitely has time to rethink their strategy. Maybe they’ll be allowed to touch a deck of cards while they’re in the slammer. The casinos will probably rehire such dealers but they’ll be working in the kitchen or at the poker tables after they get out of prison.
Cheating is beating Bryce. If I’m in a poker game and two players are swapping hand information and they’re beating the table and me than their cheating is beating. In such a case hopefully someone would be wise enough to notice the cheating but proving it can be difficult in such a situation. If the Bellagio crew didn’t slip up and get caught by an honest employee they would still be up to their tricks.
Only idiots believe they can “influence” the outcome when throwing dice.
Cheaters never win and winners never cheat. A lesson taught to me by my 9 th grade teacher even though I wasn’t cheating she flunked me out. I was just being a class clown & she was hot, but non the less a lesson learned. I had a crush on her & later went to college after being A flunky. Getting an A in Physics F=MA, Force = Mass x Acceleration. kinetic energy=, moving energy. If you bet the pass line & two come bets & quit after three Seven outs with max free odds the casino will still have a .008% edge which is almost like flipping a coin and getting heads half the time. So don’t cheat &have fun.
Well written and researched, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I was one of the people on Green Chip who disagreed with Wong in his early days of craps AP experimenting.
My disagreements are actually mentioned in Wongs Craps book.
They cover most of the same ground Bryce has covered in this article.
What I will say is that in my opinion it possibly only applies to full size tables!
True, even when betting max odds on the don’t pass.
This is why you should just have fun with the game, find the lowest minimums, and make conservative bets. Again, have FUN with the game. Anyone that enters into any negative EV game, and takes it seriously, is not thinking clearly.
It’s interesting to come upon this topic. A couple of years ago I decided to investigate this very subject and I purchase a full size casino craps table and purchased a camera capable of recording images at 240 frames per second. It became very obvious to me after watching a few dozen tests of trying to get the dice to kiss off of each other (thus trying to influence one of them into being not random) that there is absolutely no way to beat craps.
I wish like hell I had saved my videos and posted them to youtube. It was fascinating to watch them bounce around in super slow motion. I’d bet my last dollar that nobody can ultimately control dice in anyway whatsoever after seeing what I saw, even without having to hit the diamonds on the back wall.
These cameras have come significantly in price now if someone wants to try it out for themselves. Some can be had for under $500 now.
Anyway. Just thought I would share my experience.
There is a vast difference between controlling the dice or influencing and having a shot that allows you to take advantage of what the dice are doing. If you take a look at all the research which has been done on dice
control, it all extends what is possible using absolutes. The dice only can do this, as a thrower you are
exactly the same everyday and it cant beat the casino and on and on.
Yet every player has been at the table when the dice outcomes are not what the math of the game indicates it should have been. 6 & 8 was hitting all night, just about all the sevens seen were 3/4 4/3 or 6/1 1/6. so on.
Lots of sevens on the come out, lots of craps on the come out. There is variance.
Now look at this information from above
Now, for Wong’s double-pitch avoidance conjecture to be potentially valid, the correlated rotation assumption, above, is particularly important with respect to pitch. This is because if pitch between the two dice remains largely correlated (though not necessarily on axis), then, even though induced roll and yaw are effectively randomized (though still correlated), double pitches resulting in 7s should, as Wong asserts, occur less often than random.
Now ask yourself a question, if you are shooting out of a hardway set, and are getting way to many double pitches…why in the heck would you want to want to change that ??????? that is influence that is happening
from the shot you have at that time….I dont worry about my shot, i change the set to take ADAVANTAGE of the influence i have right now.
Way to many craps shooters demand or try to demand that they want to indicate to the dice what the
outcomes will be, instead of understanding that no human being is the same from day to day or week to week yet alone from table to table. A shooter always has influence, the more consistent the shot, the more often
you can see it.
Only an idiot wants to change influence because it is not what he was expecting
dicesetter