Fitz/D BJ Coupon Unpleasantness RESOLVED!!!

Want a miserable time? Try to get Fitzgerald's/The D to honor the blackjack coupon that it got into this year's MRB according to its terms and the way Anthony Curtis says it's supposed to work. Miserable!

I'm referring to the increasingly-infamous "Push 22 at Blackjack up to $25" coupon. The title suggests how it's to be played: Bet up to $25 on a hand of blackjack. If you bust with a 22, present the voucher you get from the player's club for the coupon before playing, and the dealer will take the voucher but let you keep your bet as if you had pushed. The fine print merely adds that the voucher only applies to the first hand and not to split hands or to money wagered as a double-down.
Quote

Voucher must be redeemed at the players club prior to play. Offer valid for blackjack only (not valid on Blackjack Switch or Spanish 21). Bonus is not paid on double downs or pair splits. Maximum bonus payout not to exceed $25. A minimum buy-in of $100 is required. See players club for complete details. Management reserves all rights. Must be 21 years or older. Not responsible for lost or forgotten coupons. No cash value. Offer expires December 27, 2012.

A creative coupon, but easy to understand, should be pretty simple. Anthony even verified its simplicity here six weeks ago, writing:
Quote

Originally posted by: anthony
If you bust with 22 you don't lose your bet, only it doesn't apply when you double down or split. That's all. It's a very valuable offer, worth about $22 in expected value.

Well, it's April, and using this coupon isn't simple at all.

I tried to use it Sunday. My first inkling that something weird might happen came when I exchanged the coupon for the voucher. The voucher has, in bold capital letters,"NO PUSH ON 22". Wait, what? I thought the whole point of the coupon was to let a player push on 22. No push is what happens every hand when you don't have a coupon. More confusion comes from the fine print: "First two cards only". Wait, what? How the heck can i get 22 on two cards? Treat a pair of aces as 22, play the voucher, and get my bet back? They must mean that it only applies to the initial BJ hand, not to a split hand or a double wager. Right?

Anyhow, my fears were confirmed when I tried to use the voucher Sunday night around 8P while flat-betting $25 in a six-deck shoe game. Up against a dealer face card, I hit my two-card twelve and drew a face for a bust 22. And so I played the voucher, which had been sitting face up next to my chips for a dozen hands or so.

The young, half naked, and frightened female dealer, who I think was on her first day of dealing ever (shuffling was a nightmare), and who had an older, experienced, and fully clothed dealer standing near third base supervising her every move, turned to the older dealer and asked what to do. The older dealer politely but firmly declared I couldn't use the voucher because I was busted. She seemed a bit uncertain, but she generally indicated that, in her view, the voucher was essentially a (far-less valuable) surrender card, allowing the player a chance to surrender on a game that doesn't normally offer it. I told her how I thought it should work, that I should get my $25 back, but she disagreed and called the nearby manager over.

That manager, a tall man in his thirties, backed her up, and directed the dealer to collect my bet. I politely but firmly told told him that he too was mistaken, that the voucher language was bizarre and differed from the language of the coupon now with the player's club, and how my bust 22 should be deemed a push. I asked him what was meant by the words "NO PUSH ON 22" on the voucher. He said that meant I couldn't play it if I had 22. Which makes no sense, since when would a player have 22 on their first two cards? Was he saying I couldn't surrender a pair of aces? What?

By now, the game had been delayed 3-4 minutes, and I was apologizing to the two other players for holding up the game. I said I would not mind if the game continued without me, but the manager decided to hold the game and call the casino manager down.

When that manager, a shorter man in of 50 or so (sorry but I recall no names), arrived, he too essentially described the voucher as a tool to allow a one-time surrender, which is not at all what the MRB coupon says or what Anthony wrote in February. I told him he was wrong, and suggested he let me get my wager back in exchange for the voucher. He said he didn't want me to go away angry and agreed. I got my $25 chip back, colored up, and left, dispirited but not angry, up $150 or so.

From my experience, it appears that The D has no intention of easily honoring the BJ deal that Huntington Press negotiated with Fitzgerald's for this year's MRB. Everyone was polite, as was I, and the situation was ultimately resolved to my satisfaction. But no one was convinced their interpretation about the coupon was wrong. I certainly wasn't.

I think someone with HP needs to speak to senior casino management at The D, compare the words of the coupon and the voucher, and figure out what's going to happen as these coupons are redeemend over the remainder of the year. It's all screwed up right now, and LVA members don't deserve this headache.

Unless you consider lengthy arguments with casino management part of the fun of a Las Vegas vacation, I'd recommend not using this coupon until The D commits to abiding by its printed terms.
Wow, that's bad Chilcoot! Maybe you can also post this in the Questions To The LVA Staff Message Board.

RecVPPlayer
How about this. Stick to simple coupons that everyone - players, dealers, etc. can all easily understand? Everyone gets what a $10 matchplay is. Don't get me wrong, A for effort and creativity...but I passed on trying this one. I used the BJ pays 2 to 1 at The Gate with no problem.
Quote

Originally posted by: Chilcoot I think someone with HP needs to speak to senior casino management at The D... LVA members don't deserve this headache.
I cannot recall any conversation with a manager-type at a casino, that did not result in a headache. When you look up "corporal syndrome" in the dictionary, it says "see casino manager."


First problem on this we've heard of. I'll get them involved to educate the dealers.
Hey you know what? Now I remember reading a previous thread about the coupon being changed by management to basically being a Get Out Of Any Two-Card Hand (Not Necessarily Your Very First Hand) Free Coupon which is like having a coupon for Late Surrender (after the Dealer has determined that s/he does not have a Blackjack) which it does not seem to be normally offered at that casino but instead of the player losing One-Half of their bet when Surrendering, the Player would be losing nothing at all! If that is actually the case, I think that that might be a much better coupon than a coupon for Pushing on 22 (although I don't know what the math says about this, and so the Push On 22 coupon could still be better).

RecVPPlayer

Further Edited To Say: I have now tracked down the thread that talks about this change. The thread (which is in the Coupon Message Board) is called "MRB Fitz BJ Coupon?" which was created on 2/20/2012 by "yo eleven." The specific posting about the change was made by fremont4ever on 2/22/12 which regarded an incident that he had on 2/3/12.
Hey Chilcoot,

What exactly did the voucher from Fitzgerald's say as to what kind of coupon it was?

I'm asking this question because maybe what Fitzgerald's/D did was change the coupon into a "Get Out Of Your Original Two Card Hand Free" Coupon (as was mentioned by fremont4ever in the thread that I mentioned above). This in essence would become like a Late Surrender coupon but instead of losing one-half of your bet by Surrendering, with this you would lose nothing (which I'm pretty sure is better than the Push On 22 coupon)!

And so that coupon may have been changed for the better for us.

RecVPPlayer
To do this promo, we give the MRB coupon to the players club. The players club then gives us a voucher to play at the table. The voucher is small, even smaller than a MRB coupon. I did not read everything on the voucher. But in large, boldfaced capital letters on top, it said NO PUSH ON 22

Words that make no sense at all, for this promo or any BJ promo I could imagine.

A late surrender voucher is not nearly as valuable as the deal HP negotiated for this year's MRB. With late surrender, a player can concede his or her initial two cards so long as the dealer doesn't have blackjack. The cost is typically half the original bet and requires some speculation: a player 16 against a dealer 10 is bad, but it does win sometimes (20%? 25%)

The MRB coupon is far better. It allows for surrender AFTER the player busts, turning an absolute loser (rather than a likely loser) into a push. To my mind, if I play 100 hands or so, I'm certain to bust with 22 at least once. That makes the coupon worth exactly $25 to me, since I'm certain to hang on to one green chip that I otherwise would have lost.

I think the problem here probably lies with the players club that wrote up the voucher. I don't think they understand the deal HP negotiated. NO PUSH ON 22 is nonsensical and pretty much the complete opposite of how the deal is to work. And so it's causing the pit personnel, who don't see the coupon, no end of headaches, which they then share with us players.

If I worked for HP, I'd call the slot club, have them email me a pdf of the voucher they're distributing, and have it redrafted to accurately reflect the terms of the MRB deal. I'd then ask the D to send out a memo to its pit personnel so that they know how it's supposed to work. And, if I know Anthony, I bet he's doing just that.
Well thank you for that explanation, Chilcoot!

As for what I'm getting about this now, Fitz/D changed the type of coupon and the terms of it without HP's knowledge or consent! But maybe Fitz/D thought that that could be one of their "Management Reserves All Rights" incidents. But yes, even if that is the case, they still should have told HP that they were doing that!

RecVPPlayer
Quote

Originally posted by: Chilcoot
Want a miserable time? Try to get Fitzgerald's/The D to honor the blackjack coupon that it got into this year's MRB according to its terms and the way Anthony Curtis says it's supposed to work. Miserable!

I'm referring to the increasingly-infamous "Push 22 at Blackjack up to $25" coupon. The title suggests how it's to be played: Bet up to $25 on a hand of blackjack. If you bust with a 22, present the voucher you get from the player's club for the coupon before playing, and the dealer will take the voucher but let you keep your bet as if you had pushed. The fine print merely adds that the voucher only applies to the first hand and not to split hands or to money wagered as a double-down.
Quote

Voucher must be redeemed at the players club prior to play. Offer valid for blackjack only (not valid on Blackjack Switch or Spanish 21). Bonus is not paid on double downs or pair splits. Maximum bonus payout not to exceed $25. A minimum buy-in of $100 is required. See players club for complete details. Management reserves all rights. Must be 21 years or older. Not responsible for lost or forgotten coupons. No cash value. Offer expires December 27, 2012.

A creative coupon, but easy to understand, should be pretty simple. Anthony even verified its simplicity here six weeks ago, writing:
Quote

Originally posted by: anthony
If you bust with 22 you don't lose your bet, only it doesn't apply when you double down or split. That's all. It's a very valuable offer, worth about $22 in expected value.

Well, it's April, and using this coupon isn't simple at all.

I tried to use it Sunday. My first inkling that something weird might happen came when I exchanged the coupon for the voucher. The voucher has, in bold capital letters,"NO PUSH ON 22". Wait, what? I thought the whole point of the coupon was to let a player push on 22. No push is what happens every hand when you don't have a coupon. More confusion comes from the fine print: "First two cards only". Wait, what? How the heck can i get 22 on two cards? Treat a pair of aces as 22, play the voucher, and get my bet back? They must mean that it only applies to the initial BJ hand, not to a split hand or a double wager. Right?

Anyhow, my fears were confirmed when I tried to use the voucher Sunday night around 8P while flat-betting $25 in a six-deck shoe game. Up against a dealer face card, I hit my two-card twelve and drew a face for a bust 22. And so I played the voucher, which had been sitting face up next to my chips for a dozen hands or so.

The young, half naked, and frightened female dealer, who I think was on her first day of dealing ever (shuffling was a nightmare), and who had an older, experienced, and fully clothed dealer standing near third base supervising her every move, turned to the older dealer and asked what to do. The older dealer politely but firmly declared I couldn't use the voucher because I was busted. She seemed a bit uncertain, but she generally indicated that, in her view, the voucher was essentially a (far-less valuable) surrender card, allowing the player a chance to surrender on a game that doesn't normally offer it. I told her how I thought it should work, that I should get my $25 back, but she disagreed and called the nearby manager over.

That manager, a tall man in his thirties, backed her up, and directed the dealer to collect my bet. I politely but firmly told told him that he too was mistaken, that the voucher language was bizarre and differed from the language of the coupon now with the player's club, and how my bust 22 should be deemed a push. I asked him what was meant by the words "NO PUSH ON 22" on the voucher. He said that meant I couldn't play it if I had 22. Which makes no sense, since when would a player have 22 on their first two cards? Was he saying I couldn't surrender a pair of aces? What?

By now, the game had been delayed 3-4 minutes, and I was apologizing to the two other players for holding up the game. I said I would not mind if the game continued without me, but the manager decided to hold the game and call the casino manager down.

When that manager, a shorter man in of 50 or so (sorry but I recall no names), arrived, he too essentially described the voucher as a tool to allow a one-time surrender, which is not at all what the MRB coupon says or what Anthony wrote in February. I told him he was wrong, and suggested he let me get my wager back in exchange for the voucher. He said he didn't want me to go away angry and agreed. I got my $25 chip back, colored up, and left, dispirited but not angry, up $150 or so.

From my experience, it appears that The D has no intention of easily honoring the BJ deal that Huntington Press negotiated with Fitzgerald's for this year's MRB. Everyone was polite, as was I, and the situation was ultimately resolved to my satisfaction. But no one was convinced their interpretation about the coupon was wrong. I certainly wasn't.

I think someone with HP needs to speak to senior casino management at The D, compare the words of the coupon and the voucher, and figure out what's going to happen as these coupons are redeemend over the remainder of the year. It's all screwed up right now, and LVA members don't deserve this headache.

Unless you consider lengthy arguments with casino management part of the fun of a Las Vegas vacation, I'd recommend not using this coupon until The D commits to abiding by its printed terms.



Think back to when LVA said they decided to discontinue all the matchplay coupons because of some unpleasant results. In fact, they could not solicit any of them any longer. So now this pathetic excuse for a coupon arises. Scraping the bottom of the barrel, it seems. Wonder how much EV they counted on this little item in their tout value total?

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