Are pay tables is vp real

I was just involved in a disscussion about ultimate x.  It went something like, back when x used to hit. and we started talking about starting hands vs the pay tables.  So basicly the question was, can they manipulate starting hands to affect the overall payout of a game such as 8 to 5 bonus poker by changing how often a quality hand appears on the flop such as a pair or trips..  How true to the odds of a 52 card deck do they have to be.  AKA   does a pair of aces come up more than a pair of kings in triple double

My understanding is that the regulations in Nevada (and I'm guessing in all other US states, probably in Canada) specify that a video poker game must emulate a shuffled 52 card (or 53 in joker games) deck, so initial hands and draws would be truly random (technically, pseudorandom, but plenty random for our purposes).  It would certainly be easy to gaff a machine but the risks are too high for a Nevada casino (massive fines or revocation of license) and there's not much incentive to do so, as the casino can use whatever pay table it wants to balance EV with customer acceptance and will make plenty of money.  I've heard plenty of stories of gaffed machines and table games in third world countries (often from cruise ship passengers), but I trust licensed casinos in the United States to be honest, if not greedy.

https://www.realmoneyaction.com/video-poker/what-types-of-video-poker-machines-are-legal-in-nevada/

 

APPROVAL OF VIDEO POKER GAMES IN NEVADA

When a new game or new ruleset of an existing game is looking to be added to Nevada casinos there is a rigorous testing progress. The designers must prove randomness mathematically as well as prove the validity of the payout frequencies and percentages they claim. Games must undergo testing at a certified lab and then must undergo several stages of ‘real world‘ testing including simulations and eventually a provisional placement on a casino floor.

Originally posted by: Brent Kline

I was just involved in a disscussion about ultimate x.  It went something like, back when x used to hit. and we started talking about starting hands vs the pay tables.  So basicly the question was, can they manipulate starting hands to affect the overall payout of a game such as 8 to 5 bonus poker by changing how often a quality hand appears on the flop such as a pair or trips..  How true to the odds of a 52 card deck do they have to be.  AKA   does a pair of aces come up more than a pair of kings in triple double


CAN they? Most certainly, and it's been done before, leading to various scandals when detected. DO they? Almost certainly not, if they're machines from a reputable manufacturer AND in a reputable casino. SHOULD they? No, because the games are winners for them without tampering. 

 

So referring to the above, I've detected cheating in VP machines three times...and each time, I didn't recognize the machine manufacturer, the casino was small and out of the way, and most importantly, all three times, the casino was on an Indian reservation. Those casinos have NO external oversight, and if you feel you've been cheated, your only recourse is to sue them in...their own tribal courts.

 

But in Nevada these days...you're safe.


Casino manipulation is dependant upon the jurisdiction that enforces laws.      I woulnt worry about the big casino hubs in the US.      Native AMerican casinos make me a little nervous although I've never heard a problem with them screwing customers over.    Just have to watch out for those class 2 machines.    The Hard Rock casino in Tampa advertises 9/6 Jacks or Better - but its a class 2 machine.   That schedule doesnt mean anything - its basically a slot.

 

Cruise ships?  No freaking way will I play anything on them.    Who is the independant gaming rules enforcer?  The ship's captain? 

 

 

Originally posted by: PJ Stroh

Casino manipulation is dependant upon the jurisdiction that enforces laws.      I woulnt worry about the big casino hubs in the US.      Native AMerican casinos make me a little nervous although I've never heard a problem with them screwing customers over.    Just have to watch out for those class 2 machines.    The Hard Rock casino in Tampa advertises 9/6 Jacks or Better - but its a class 2 machine.   That schedule doesnt mean anything - its basically a slot.

 

Cruise ships?  No freaking way will I play anything on them.    Who is the independant gaming rules enforcer?  The ship's captain? 

 

 


I'm aware of several instances where tribal casinos refused to pay big jackpots. The players were appalled to find that they had no legal recourse except to sue the tribe...in its own tribal court. Federal offenses committed on tribal land fall under federal jurisdiction, but not paying out a jackpot is a civil, not a criminal offense.

 

I think the chances of this happening at any given time are extremely low, but why chance it?

Originally posted by: jstewa22

My understanding is that the regulations in Nevada (and I'm guessing in all other US states, probably in Canada)............


Not all states. In Washington state, for example we have bingo style slot machines and lottery style slot machines. These look like slot machines but are actually just bingo or lottery terminals. There is no actual video poker. There are machines that look like poker but they're just lottery terminals. 

Originally posted by: LiveFreeNW

Not all states. In Washington state, for example we have bingo style slot machines and lottery style slot machines. These look like slot machines but are actually just bingo or lottery terminals. There is no actual video poker. There are machines that look like poker but they're just lottery terminals. 


True.  Those are called Class 2 machines (we used to have them in Florida, before the compact changed to allow the truly random Class 3 machines), and yes, they do emulate a bingo game with all machines in play in the casino participating.  Those games can yield any EV that the operator wants, and the VP games don't involve skill at all; the outcome is predetermined, and if you throw away a dealt quad you'll get a new quad on the redraw (although I wouldn't try it).  The Class 2 games are likely still "honest," i.e., wins and losses should still be distributed randomly and consistent with the overall EV.

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