Kill Phil Poker - Where did everybody go?

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kevco55

Jun 20, 2011
4:41am

Block User

?????????

tss777

Jun 20, 2011
5:30am

Block User

over here.

wagon30

Jun 21, 2011
5:52am

Block User

I blame Row's comment!

I played live the other day. It was about a 1.5 hour drive. I played for 5-6 hours and won $7 (boo!). I played $1-$2

I've been thinking about adjusting to the games (which are filled with very bad players).

1. I need to 3-bet for value much more. Online, against most players 3-bets for value should be hands that I'm willing to get it in with. Live, most 3-bets are called, and they are called much too often. Also, I don't think I will get 4-bet bluffed ever! My only fear is a 4-bet that should be a bluff, but the raiser thinks is the best hand. In general though, I think I should be 3-betting for value, expecting to get called and folding almost everything to 4-bets.

2. I made three bad river calls. I just don't think many opponents are making small bluffs. I think I can fold more and occasionally turn my hand into a bluff.

3. I can probably play more hands in position, and thus, the preflop bluffs I should sprinkle in should be weaker hands.

4. People go much deeper into hands. One effect this has is that I should actually make my turn and river value bets stronger. The reason is that their ranges are much weaker. I had a couple of opportunities to "sell my hand," where I instead made a big bet. Online, I'm often against much more inelastic calling ranges. Ie. If they have a set or a straight and I rivered a flush, they are calling almost all bets regardless of size. But live they might have second pair or top pair.

5. I feel self-conscious about taking too much time. I sometimes feel like I'm giving off tells when I'm likely not (or no one is paying attention if I am). I need to take more time on certain decisions. Mostly picking the right sizing, since this is important on good and bad hands, I don't think I need to worry about tells much.

6. I suck at picking up tells. I need to think through them better. I missed an obvious verbal tell that I should have picked up on.

7. People slow play much more. They are usually wrong to do it, but it's important to adjust to. Big bets later in hands have much wider value ranges, since live players will slow play in some ridiculous spots.

Cheers, I hope to get out again soon.

P.S. I'm playing on an extremely small "bankroll." Maybe as little as two buyins. So I'm playing a very low variance style, and I'll have to pass on some of these opportunities until I get a larger roll.

kevco55

Jun 21, 2011
10:47pm

Block User

Looked like nobody was posting for almost 2 weeks..

tss777

Jun 22, 2011
12:01am

Block User

Two things Wags:

1) You probably have already read it, but if not, make sure you read Joe Novarro's (sp?) book on tells. It's really quite brilliant. That said, the one tell I have trouble with, like you had, were verbal tells. I think I over intellectualize it into a Princess Bride like iocane powder conversation (yay! a second princess bride analogy on our forum.) Most people just aren't that sophisticated.

2) One thing you didn't mention about the effect of bad players and them calling too much late in the hand is it means you don't have to build the pot early in the hand. For instance, online you might bet (or sometimes even 3bet) a hand like TJs before the flop to build a pot worth winning. You might also semibluff with a straight or flush draw to build the pot or win it. Since you are more likely to be called, the bluff part isn't as good of an idea and since you can still get paid when you hit, building the pot early isn't as necessary. of course, all of this is assuming bad players...

t

tss777

Jun 22, 2011
12:37pm

Block User

I should note that I meant the strategy listed in 2 above specifically for when playing with a small bankroll.

wagon30

Jun 22, 2011
3:05pm

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: tss777
Two things Wags:

1) You probably have already read it, but if not, make sure you read Joe Novarro's (sp?) book on tells. It's really quite brilliant. That said, the one tell I have trouble with, like you had, were verbal tells. I think I over intellectualize it into a Princess Bride like iocane powder conversation (yay! a second princess bride analogy on our forum.) Most people just aren't that sophisticated.

I have it. Read it a long time ago. I've started to reread it a little. There is a whole lot of material. Way too much to absorb at once. I think I will take it piece by piece and maybe try to narrow my focus studying 1 or 2 people at the table. Though sessions are much longer and it is hard to focus for that long. I guess eventually it all gets to autopilot.

But most of these strategies just depend on me reading hands better. It's really hard for me to adjust to these wide ranges.

thehammah

Jun 24, 2011
4:49am

Block User

Wagon

I have probably played the most live cash in this forum.. Certainly in the NLHE.. Live is much different than online. I would be happy to talk about hands if you feel the need, just send me a pm with your number..

I rarely make river bluffs unless the player thinks I am very tight and I am in position and I think a scare card came on the river. Most of my tell reading is really bet sizing.. I find most players feel an obligation to cbet so they do.. problem is they cbet weakly when weak and cbet strongly when strong.. a few players will do the " i will bet weak when I am strong" but most of the time they come out of the woodwork on the turn and then bet big.. I have picked a few off this way hitting gutters and sets etc.. always love the look on their faces ..

all in all live cash is a game of value bets and raises.. I like a tight image and use that to my advantage.. sometimes I lose value when they fold and I have a big hand.. but you just need to gauge your opponent. Recently I have won huge pots in excess of 300bbs when I flop a set and bet it. Its the only way to really disguise your hand and get the pot big enough to committ many players with weaker hands. I balance this out by also betting weaker hands more as well. So now I value bet much thinner than I used to and that seems to confuse the other players. All of this of course is finding the right amount to bet too. I think I bet smaller than I used to .. walking a thinner line of pot odds but if I didnt I wouldnt get action and I think my game is good enough to get away from hands that are vuneralble

good time coming over to the dark side of live games!

wendy

thehammah

Jun 24, 2011
4:50am

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: wagon30
I blame Row's comment!

I played live the other day. It was about a 1.5 hour drive. I played for 5-6 hours and won $7 (boo!). I played $1-$2

I've been thinking about adjusting to the games (which are filled with very bad players).

1. I need to 3-bet for value much more. Online, against most players 3-bets for value should be hands that I'm willing to get it in with. Live, most 3-bets are called, and they are called much too often. Also, I don't think I will get 4-bet bluffed ever! My only fear is a 4-bet that should be a bluff, but the raiser thinks is the best hand. In general though, I think I should be 3-betting for value, expecting to get called and folding almost everything to 4-bets.

2. I made three bad river calls. I just don't think many opponents are making small bluffs. I think I can fold more and occasionally turn my hand into a bluff.

3. I can probably play more hands in position, and thus, the preflop bluffs I should sprinkle in should be weaker hands.

4. People go much deeper into hands. One effect this has is that I should actually make my turn and river value bets stronger. The reason is that their ranges are much weaker. I had a couple of opportunities to "sell my hand," where I instead made a big bet. Online, I'm often against much more inelastic calling ranges. Ie. If they have a set or a straight and I rivered a flush, they are calling almost all bets regardless of size. But live they might have second pair or top pair.

5. I feel self-conscious about taking too much time. I sometimes feel like I'm giving off tells when I'm likely not (or no one is paying attention if I am). I need to take more time on certain decisions. Mostly picking the right sizing, since this is important on good and bad hands, I don't think I need to worry about tells much.

6. I suck at picking up tells. I need to think through them better. I missed an obvious verbal tell that I should have picked up on.

7. People slow play much more. They are usually wrong to do it, but it's important to adjust to. Big bets later in hands have much wider value ranges, since live players will slow play in some ridiculous spots.

Cheers, I hope to get out again soon.

P.S. I'm playing on an extremely small "bankroll." Maybe as little as two buyins. So I'm playing a very low variance style, and I'll have to pass on some of these opportunities until I get a larger roll.

I am 100% sure that you are playing over the heads of virtually every player at 1/2.. You have to dumb things down and not try to represent much other than what you have. The players generally wont get what you are telling them.

h

wagon30

Jun 24, 2011
10:58am

Block User

Almost all of the adjustments are a form of dumbing things down. I'm trying to take advantage of their unbalanced play. I don't think it's about representing anything special. Just reading hands well and knowing when people are likely to fold.

I've been revisiting a Tolstoy quote that I thought about at the table. Here's my version, "Good poker players are all alike, but each bad player is bad in their own way."

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