Kitchen Sink (Misc) - 9-9-9 Is Definitely The Way to Go

pjstroh

Oct 24, 2011
10:39am

Quote

Originally posted by: motownbob
So who pays what you ask?

What is the truth?

What better place to go to find out the answer than the IRS (Internal Revenue Service). Taxfoundation.org has developed a couple of easy-to-follow charts based on the data provided by the IRS - I have provided a link to Taxfoundation.org below.

According to the IRS, the "income split point" for somebody to be included in the top 1% of all taxpayers (by income) was $380,354 in 2008 (the last year where data is available).

So, if you reported Positive Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) of $380,354 or over, then you were in the top 1% of all taxpayers in the United States in 2008.

According to the IRS, this group of taxpayers (1,399,606 total) paid 38.02% of all federal individual income tax collected in 2008.

The top 5% of all taxpayers (income split on this group was at $159,619 in 2008) paid 58.72% of all federal individual income taxes in 2008.

Let's continue to break this down:

Top 10% (Income Split Point $113,799) Paid 69.94% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
Top 25% (Income Split Point $67,280) Paid 86.34% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
Top 50% (Income Split Point $33,048) Paid 97.30% of Federal Individual Income Taxes
Bottom 50% (Anyone Making Less Than $33,048) Paid 2.7% of Federal Individual Income Taxes

--

A few other interesting nuggets of information for you:

-top 1% of earners in 2008 brought home 20% of adjusted gross income but paid 38.02% of all federal individual income taxes

-top 1% of earners paid 40.4% of federal individual income taxes in 2007

-the top 0.1% of earners in 2008 (140,000 tax returns) paid 18.5% of federal individual income taxes

-the average income of this group in 2008 was approximately $6 million

--

There you have it, courtesy of the IRS.

Source: Taxfoundation.org

What then IS the fair share the rich are supposed to pay? The top 10% of wage earners already pay70% of the taxes...

Bob

How insightful ! Of course, all of this is only true if you cherry pick the definition of "taxes" to be "Federal Income Tax" which is exactly what you and your source do. All those other taxes collected at the Federal, State, and Local level dont come to play in your equation.

What percentage of taxes does a school teacher pay (all taxes - not just your purposefully misleading definition) and then compare it to the percentage Steve Forbes pays . I think you would be embarrassed by the results.

tennis_bum

Oct 24, 2011
12:07pm

Block User

Problems with the IRS numbers:

First, as pointed out, they don't include state and local taxes. I have seen estimates on percentage of all state and local taxes for California. It's almost flat rate. It was about 11% for everyone, though the bottom 20% was highest. That reflects lots of flat fees (car registration), sales taxes (even though basic food items are exempt) and property taxes (the very rich have property in other places -- though they also bought more recently which causes tax rates to increase a lot).

The next problem with the IRS number is it uses AGI. Though, I think if you use unadjusted, the story is almost the same -- just lower percentages across the boards. US Census used to have numbers on income distribution that included both AGI and Unadjusted growth (P60 report if memory serves).

Finally, there are federal taxes missing. The biggest is the employment tax FICA which is regressive (rationnel that the benefits are progressive, so a regressive tax offsets).

The estimates of ALL taxes I've seen (and it's tough to get really good panel data on this), the US tax system is still progressive, especially on the top 20%. However, working poor can pay a lot of employment taxes. That FICA is a great equalizer when looking at percentages.

alexlifeson

Oct 24, 2011
5:07pm

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: pjstroh
Dude, haven't you heard? Our resident LVA conservative friends dont like charts or statisitics. They prefer baseless conspiracy theories.

That's not necessarily true and should not be applied to everyone. Isn't that stereotyping? Anyway, I don't have a problem with the first graph. I'm not totally sold on the 9-9-9 plan anyway. As a stats teacher, I do not automatically accept anything put in front of me without a precise definition of how the values are computed. It isn't difficult to manipulate data without actually lying to show a result that you want. This also applies to graphs that I like. Many democrats like to bully people with nonsense charts and graphs and then try to imply that someone is only influenced by what they hear on Fox News. Forkush (aka Arshaleign) always had some classics.

hoops2

Oct 24, 2011
11:27pm

Block User

The first chilly chart shows that those evil millionaires and billionaires nmaking more than $250k (anybody else see the contradiction here) are paying a boatload of taxes

motownbob

Oct 25, 2011
12:28am

Block User

You can't logically compare state and local taxes,because they differ in all states,counties and cities.The only constant is federal taxes.
Why do people have it out for the rich? They in most cases, take the risk, they get the reward.
What is stopping you from becoming "rich"? Answer, nothing. Bob

pjstroh

Oct 25, 2011
12:48am

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: motownbob
You can't logically compare state and local taxes,because they differ in all states,counties and cities.The only constant is federal taxes.
Why do people have it out for the rich? They in most cases, take the risk, they get the reward.
What is stopping you from becoming "rich"? Answer, nothing. Bob

So any taxes paid by people that aren't Fedeal Income tax dont count. I'm sure your barber will be relieved to hear that. State and local taxes are frequently flat taxes (like on of the 9's in Herman Cain's plan) which disproporionately affect people with lower incomes. So what stops them from becoming rich? The fact that they pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes (many of which you dont count but they do)....that and the fact that the careers that can lead to them becoming rich have been steadily outsourced overseas thanks to a bought and paid for government that encourages that very activity.

motownbob

Oct 25, 2011
1:15am

Block User

We now live in a world economy. If someone will work for less, they get the job.As a stockholder, don't you expect, even demand, that the stocks and mutual funds in your 401 or IRA,provide the maximum return?And if they don't do you find one that does?
It all goes back to accepting responsibilty for one's success or failure.Stop the blame game.The chances to succeed are better here in the good ol' USA than anywhere in the world.Is our system perfect?hell no, but it is still the best option.
I know of immigrants who came to this country with nothing.Couldn't speak the language.But they busted their asses,used their brains,and didn't blame others fot there "tuff" situation.
If they can do it,so can any one else.

Bob

hoops2

Oct 25, 2011
3:08am

Block User

The mood of the country is that the people want a simpler tax system, not the complicated mess we have now.

pjstroh

Oct 25, 2011
3:16am

Block User

The "Simpler" tax system being proposed by almost all Republican candidates now is a version of a "Flat Tax". Herman Cain and Rick Perry have centerpieced it. And Flip Romney (who once correctly called Flat Taxes a massive cut for the fat cats) has 180'ed on it too. Add it the list of every other issue he's flipped on.

Two people drive their car through a $1 toll booth on the highway. One is a cashier at Walmart. One is Steve Wynn. Whose income takes a bigger hit from the toll? Welcome to the new GOP tax plan...replace the record low tax rates for the wealthiest people with even lower rates ...and then increase taxes on the the record number of people living in poverty in the US. Yep - they are looking out for the little guy. Isn't it funny when they call Obama an elitist?

ken2v

Oct 25, 2011
3:52am

Block User

PJ, should every public-sector exaction be tiered, is that what you would like to see? Bed tax, national park admissions, gas tax, fees for marriage licenses ...

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