China doesn't use windmills for energy.

My criticisms of the CCP are quite distinguishable from and go far beyond any criticism I may or may not have of "socialism".

I don't really think the Tibetans, Uygers, Mongolians, Fulan Gong, or other victims of the CCPs active and ongoing campaign of genocide would call the government "miraculous" or a "success". 

I hardly think the people in political prisons and concentration camps would find anything miraculous about the CCP. 

The CCP is (in some ways) is improving life for the racial majority Han Chinese. But they are imprisoning and causing forced starvation for other ethnic groups. 

I don't think The Republic Of China, The Philippines, Japan, and other countries the CCP is threatening to occupy would  call them miraculous either. 

Yes. They have succeeded in allowing their people, for the most part, to be fed and not starve to death by the masses every year. I would consider that an example of a minimum standard of government. And they couldn't even do that without active genocide. I would not call that miraculous. 

The CCP (as far as governments are concerned) might currently be the greatest active and ongoing threat to human peace, prosperity, and freedom in the world today.

 Of course it is worth mentioning here that "we" are contributing to the problem and enabling the tyranny by allowing "our" lust for cheap goods and labor to exploit the situation for "our" own gain. 

https://www.eenews.net/articles/trump-says-china-doesnt-use-wind-power-its-actually-no-1-by-a-lot-2/

Kevin,

What I meant by skepticism of wind turbines is things like when you add up costs of manufacturer and maintenance it isn't always efficient and can be quite high cost. You have to choose the location carefully to avoid affecting wildlife. Things like that. 

I agree the technology is proven in many ways and should definitely be used, researched, and improved upon. It would be silly not to. 

It was not my intent to demonize the technology generally or say that we shouldn't be adding it to our energy portfolio. 

My intent was to just admit that it is not the panacea that some (probably not you) seem to think it is. 

I find that often when conversing  with others and attempting to express my opinion it is useful to acknowledge some sort of common ground so that I do not come off as confrontational. I feel people tend to be more receptive when they dont feel attacked.

Once again, don't confuse my criticism of what people here generally say and with specifics you've said. You did say that China has been successful. I was simply expanding on that thought. 

It's undeniable that the average Chinese citizen lives a far better life than he did only a few decades ago. And if you go back not very far at all, the average Chinese's life was "nasty, brutish, and short." Does this mean that at any point on the timeline, our lives weren't considerably better than theirs? Of course not 

The point I'm trying to make about AWFUL AWFUL SOOOOCIALISM is that China has never been a socialist country. It was a oligarchal dictatorship, plain and simple, for five thousand years. Then, about 30 years ago, it began to transition into a capitalist/socialist model. But idiots such as Trump and MAGA look at their brand name and say THAR AWL COMMIES.

I'm well aware of the oppression of minorities and the active threats to peace in the region. However, I stand by my assessment that China is a success. So was Nazi Germany during its inception. So may Nazi America be during Trump's reign. Success isn't a matter of right or wrong. It can definitely be achieved at the expense of others (Hitler; Trump). I'm simply saying that the minimum goal, as you put it, has been achieved in China for the first time in 5,000 years.

I'm sorry you feel that way and it was not my intention to "attack" you. I guess I'm just kind of tired of all the criticism of sustainable energy when so much--so very, very much--of it is dishonest. It's propaganda spewed by the fossil fuel industry to keep us addicted to their products. And of course, Republicans have been in their thrall since, well, WWII.

Your concern about wildlife is somewhat misplaced, as a turbine, whirling or still, appears to birds as a big tree and they know to fly around it. If Trump/idiots were correct, there would be huge piles of dead birds at the base of every operating wind turbine--and some Fakebook influencer would have posted dozens of lurid pictures.

Wind power, like ANY power source, needs infrastructure, which has to be built before a single kilowatt is generated. If one wants to make a comparison, though, both wind and solar have far, far lower building costs than conventional power generating plants on a megawatt for megawatt basis.

You should also consider that sustainable energy production doesn't have to be "fed" coal or natural gas or petroleum or Fruit Loops. So in either case, the cost of building the infrastructure has to be amortized to make a true overall cost comparison--but once built, solar and wind just need maintenance. They don't consume anything! Nothing has to be dug up and trucked there to be burned. So cost recovery happens much quicker. In contrast, fossil fuel plants can and often do wear out before the cost of building them is recovered.

I could also mention the dramatic difference in pollution, but no one seems to care about that any more.

Oh, and BTW, hydroelectric power is clean and safe, but after the dam-building frenzy of the mid-20th century, there just aren't any decent-sized damsites left. And of course, we could buy gobs and gobs of hydro from Canada, but the Turd has sunk that ship.

No apology needed. I didn't feel attacked by you. What I was saying was I don't want others to feel attacked by me. 

I think it's important to have a diverse energy portfolio. There are advantages and disadvantages to all sorts of energy producing technologies. I don't think there is one single answer. 

I agree that it is foolish to attack or supress new technologies as they develop. 

Sure but all I said in my first post you quoted was that China is not a country that should be praised or emulated. 

The OP made a claim that "China" does not use wind turbines to produce electricity and that they primarily use coal. 

In response I said that the PROC isn't a country that should be praised or emulated. 

That is a statement that I stand by. Especially within the context in which it was stated. 

Well, I don't think we should judge them in the same historical perspective as we do Western democracies. 

For 5,000 years, China was a despotic oligarchy where the people had no rights and no power. The ruling elite viewed them as a resource, nothing more. So advancing from that to a government that at least considers its people to be more than farm animals is, well, a great leap forward.

I would say that from a sociological perspective, they're about where we were maybe two centuries ago. They stomp on their minorities, as everyone did then. They believe in imperialism, as everyone did then.

And of course, technologically, they're overtaking us.

Because sometimes it is kind of fun to be a bit pedantic in jest. I would like to point out that the title of the thread is a bit erroneous. 

Windmills are not used to produce electricity. They are generally used to produce mechanical energy to mill grain. Wind turbines produce electricity. 

Yes, that was one of many utter stupidities in the Orange Fuck's idiotic speech. Our resident MAGAs parroted him, and poor David slobbered all over this forum in his fawning, servile praise of the stupidest President in American history.

I really do wonder how so many MAGA morons still follow him around like doggies hoping for a treat. It's so obvious that he's completely full of shit.