Dems make the right call in Tay-ucks-ass

Originally posted by: MaxFlavor

Absolutely!

 

The reason I like the French model, and it seems you didn't like this part, is that everyone gets basic health insurance, and the folks who can pay more can buy more. It's not single payer that makes sure everyone has complete coverage, but people can go out on the open market and buy the additional coverage they want. Benefit? Potentially less costly for a basic provided benefit compared to the coverages offered now from employers.

 

My current health insurance plan, from a publicly traded billion-dollar company, costs $10,258.08 per year. I pay $69.78 per pay period, and the company pays $296.58. Seems like a corporate tax, doesn't it? 

 

Remember when you recently said this? 

 

"Originally posted by: tom


Right in line with what I was paying yearly for coverage from my wife's employer. Seems reasonable.

 

For 2 people that would be $23,000."

 

Like I said right in line, WITHOUT employer subsidies. 

 

How would I handle it? As a quasi-government insurance company, similar to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In Colorado, Pinnacle Insurance handles workers' comp insurance as a quasi-government insurance company overseen by a board appointed by the governor.

 

Set up an insurance company, run by insurance people as a non-profit, have a board that oversees it, and offer basic medical coverage. Well visits, birth control, ER visits, Urgent care visits, minor specialist, etc. Then a base percentage coverage for major medical, specialist, and long-term hospital stays. 

 

At this point have an open national market from private/public health insurance companies that can provide additional benefits to anyone who can afford to buy them. 

 

How to pay for the basic coverage? Glad you asked, the same companies are paying, in my case, $8,304.24 per year to subsidize mine. The national coverage offered would be less than my current coverage and, hopefully, benefit from the "Law of large numbers", to bring the annual cost per person down.


Not to be pedantic, but what you're describing is "economies of scale." The idea that the more units are produced, the more customers served, etc , the lower the marginal cost: that of the next unit produced or customer served. So adding more customers/making more widgets lowers the prices consumers pay.

 

The above is one of the strongest arguments extant for one single coordinated healthcare system.

 

The Law of Large Numbers is a probability concept that states that as more individual results accumulate, the overall result will converge on expectation--but the absolute difference between result and expectation will, somewhat counteruntuitively, grow larger. The practical application of this concept is that "it'll all even out in the long run" is a fallacy.

Originally posted by: Kevin Lewis

Not to be pedantic, but what you're describing is "economies of scale." The idea that the more units are produced, the more customers served, etc , the lower the marginal cost: that of the next unit produced or customer served. So adding more customers/making more widgets lowers the prices consumers pay.

 

The above is one of the strongest arguments extant for one single coordinated healthcare system.

 

The Law of Large Numbers is a probability concept that states that as more individual results accumulate, the overall result will converge on expectation--but the absolute difference between result and expectation will, somewhat counteruntuitively, grow larger. The practical application of this concept is that "it'll all even out in the long run" is a fallacy.


The law of large numbers is how insurance works.

 

https://gilbertwealth.com/how-insurance-works-the-law-of-large-numbers/

 

Now go away.

Originally posted by: MaxFlavor

The law of large numbers is how insurance works.

 

https://gilbertwealth.com/how-insurance-works-the-law-of-large-numbers/

 

Now go away.


Well, the article is misnaming the concept. However, it's somewhat correct in that insurance, from the point of view of the insurer, is a series of +EV bets that something will NOT happen. The more bets, as in the more people insured and paying premiums, the closer the company will come to its calculated aggregate EV (assuming that that figure was accurate in the first place). The reason why the Law of Large Numbers is inaccurate in this context is that the divergence from the expected value in absolute terms grows even as the deviation shrinks, so insurance companies will often hedge their bets even if that lowers their overall ROI.

 

This is a subject I'm very interested in, so I abjectly beg your forgiveness for speaking about it at length. I don't see why you're so upset, but I'm past the point where I try to figure out what motivates people to say things, here or elsewhere. 

Originally posted by: MaxFlavor

Absolutely!

 

The reason I like the French model, and it seems you didn't like this part, is that everyone gets basic health insurance, and the folks who can pay more can buy more. It's not single payer that makes sure everyone has complete coverage, but people can go out on the open market and buy the additional coverage they want. Benefit? Potentially less costly for a basic provided benefit compared to the coverages offered now from employers.

 

My current health insurance plan, from a publicly traded billion-dollar company, costs $10,258.08 per year. I pay $69.78 per pay period, and the company pays $296.58. Seems like a corporate tax, doesn't it? 

 

Remember when you recently said this? 

 

"Originally posted by: tom


Right in line with what I was paying yearly for coverage from my wife's employer. Seems reasonable.

 

For 2 people that would be $23,000."

 

Like I said right in line, WITHOUT employer subsidies. 

 

How would I handle it? As a quasi-government insurance company, similar to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In Colorado, Pinnacle Insurance handles workers' comp insurance as a quasi-government insurance company overseen by a board appointed by the governor.

 

Set up an insurance company, run by insurance people as a non-profit, have a board that oversees it, and offer basic medical coverage. Well visits, birth control, ER visits, Urgent care visits, minor specialist, etc. Then a base percentage coverage for major medical, specialist, and long-term hospital stays. 

 

At this point have an open national market from private/public health insurance companies that can provide additional benefits to anyone who can afford to buy them. 

 

How to pay for the basic coverage? Glad you asked, the same companies are paying, in my case, $8,304.24 per year to subsidize mine. The national coverage offered would be less than my current coverage and, hopefully, benefit from the "Law of large numbers", to bring the annual cost per person down.


Did you see my post, tom? You asked me to share my wisdom, thoughts?


Originally posted by: MaxFlavor

Aah, it does, lower corner, my mistake. I quickly looked up Germany; they seem to have a similar system to France. Your chart shows their wait times are 22 minutes. Thoughts?

 

How about this part of the webpage? Thoughts?

 

Are Health Care Wait Times Longer in Countries with Universal Health Care than in the United States?

A common misconception in the U.S. is that countries with universal health care have much longer wait times. However, data from nations with universal coverage, coupled with historical data from coverage expansion in the United States, show that patients in other nations often have similar or shorter wait times."

 

They're similar.


Hey tom. Any thoughts on the link you posted showing Germany has a 2-minute shorter wait time than the US, and a comment that counters your claims?

How would I handle it? As a quasi-government insurance company, similar to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

 

Not a good example. Fannie is broke

 

In September 2008, the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) announced that it would take over the Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae) and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac). Both government-sponsored enterprises, which finance home mortgages in the United States by issuing bonds, had become illiquid as the market for those bonds collapsed in the subprime mortgage crisis. The FHFA established conservatorships in which each enterprise's management works under the FHFA's direction to reduce losses and to develop a new operating structure that will allow a return to self-management. As of 2024, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac remain under conservatorship, and after more than repaying their Treasury loans are building capital reserves for an expected eventual exit.

 

have a board that oversees it,

 

Much like the board that oversee the $9B in fraud in MN?

 

And then there is Ca.

 

California health care officials told the Legislature on Monday that the state will need another $2.8 billion to be able to pay Medi-Cal providers through the end of the fiscal year. That’s on top of a $3.4 billion loan that the administration told lawmakers last week it needed to make “critical” payments for Medi-Cal, the state-federal health insurance program for low-income people.

 

Combined, that’s $6.2 billion in spending above what was projected in the budget Gov. Gavin Newsom signed last summer.

 

The Medi-Cal budget for fiscal year 2025-26 totals $202.7 billion and usually needs a bailout.

There are 15m people in Medi-Cal at a cost person of just under $14,000 and you have to use their doctors.  Not seeing any improvement here 

 

Tiny little Vermont tried universal health care and failed.

 

 The plan faced systemic barriers, including cost issues, that prevented high-quality, medically necessary health services from being accessible to all Vermonters. 

 

 

Let's not forget obamacare and it's overruns.

 

The original estimate of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) was $940 billion over ten years. However, this figure was updated by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) to $1.8 trillion in 2012. The CBO's updated estimate reflects the law's impact on healthcare spending and the changes it has brought to the U.S. healthcare system.

 

Edited on Mar 14, 2026 7:03am

Max, Tom evaded your question, and barfed up a bunch of stupid, irrelevant Tom-stats. You'll learn that he's a dishonest, hypocritical weasel who is incapable of engaging in a real discussion.

Originally posted by: tom

How would I handle it? As a quasi-government insurance company, similar to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

 

Not a good example. Fannie is broke

 

In September 2008, the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA) announced that it would take over the Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae) and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac). Both government-sponsored enterprises, which finance home mortgages in the United States by issuing bonds, had become illiquid as the market for those bonds collapsed in the subprime mortgage crisis. The FHFA established conservatorships in which each enterprise's management works under the FHFA's direction to reduce losses and to develop a new operating structure that will allow a return to self-management.

 

 

 

As of 2024, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac remain under conservatorship, and after more than repaying their Treasury loans are building capital reserves for an expected eventual exit.

 

Fannie is not broke; the last line in your post says otherwise. Looks to me that after an unforeseen bond collapse, it has now paid back all the Treasury loans and is looking to start back with business as usual. 

 

 

 

Much like the board that oversee the $9B in fraud in MN?

 

And then there is Ca.

 

California health care officials told the Legislature on Monday that the state will need another $2.8 billion to be able to pay Medi-Cal providers through the end of the fiscal year. That’s on top of a $3.4 billion loan that the administration told lawmakers last week it needed to make “critical” payments for Medi-Cal, the state-federal health insurance program for low-income people.

 

Combined, that’s $6.2 billion in spending above what was projected in the budget Gov. Gavin Newsom signed last summer.

 

The Medi-Cal budget for fiscal year 2025-26 totals $202.7 billion and usually needs a bailout.

There are 15m people in Medi-Cal at a cost person of just under $14,000 and you have to use their doctors.  Not seeing any improvement here 

 

Tiny little Vermont tried universal health care and failed.

 

 The plan faced systemic barriers, including cost issues, that prevented high-quality, medically necessary health services from being accessible to all Vermonters. 

 

 

Let's not forget obamacare and it's overruns.

 

The original estimate of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) was $940 billion over ten years. However, this figure was updated by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) to $1.8 trillion in 2012. The CBO's updated estimate reflects the law's impact on healthcare spending and the changes it has brought to the U.S. healthcare system.

 


Let's not forget that the Republicans did everything they could to gut ACA, to try and make it fail.

 

It's too bad that conservatives think nothing will work except the status quo. That's pretty sad. Change nothing, I guess that's why they call it "being a conservative".

By the way, that is the second citation you've posted that contradicts your conclusion. Maybe you should read the entire document before you post it.

 

Thoughts on Germany's lower ER wait times?

Discontinued the subsidies with which it wouldn't work without, right?

Edited on Mar 14, 2026 9:34am
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