How much money should the government spend to extend the life of an 80 year old sickly person?

Originally posted by: Boilerman

Here's an obvious place to spend more money, since some believe that risk should always be minimize/eliminated.  I'm sure that you've read about the flight that left Denver on it's way to Hawaii which experienced a catastrophic failure of one of it's two engines.  Of course, the plane can fly 5 plus hours with one engine, but if the second engine fails, all on board will die.

 

There were certainly grannies on board, and certainly that dictates that we add a third engine in case the first two engines fail?  This one could be positioned in the rear of the plane.  Of course, this would require more fuel consumption, and then we have to worrie about the health of granny breathing polluted air.

 

What to do?


You're getting more ridicuous by the day.

 

Any aircraft, including an airliner, can glide for several miles if its engine(s) fail. From cruising altitude for jet airliners, it's possible to reach any airfield within about a forty-mile radius, with full control of the aircraft. So "if the second engine fails, all will die" is completely wrong. This has actually happened several times in aviation history. In no case did engine failure lead to a fatal crash.

 

There are several airliner designs that do in fact have a third engine in the rear. The reason for that configuration is simply to allow more power, and thus more payload capacity, without increasing to four engines.

 

This is a more efficient design than the same amount of thrust delivered by two engines, since to fly the same payload at the same speed, two engines would have to work much harder than three, and most jet engines are less efficient at or near full thrust. So adding a third engine to an existing design often saves fuel. That's another instance where you're completely wrong.

 

Of course, you're ignorant about aviation and you were just trying to make some stupid point about risk. Nobody believes, despite what you say, that risk should be eliminated no matter what, and no matter the cost. People who design and fly aircraft are extremely good at minimizing risk, as shown by airlines' excellent safety record, and understand more about it than you ever could.

Poor Kevin, so misguided.  He'd be much safer in Arkansas.

Kevin, you are correct that large planes can land in 40 miles, but only if at about 35,000 feet when power is lost.  The plane that blew the engine was not within 40 miles of an airport with a sufficient runway.  There are about 50 air fields within 3000 miles from Denver where this plane could land, and I'll bet zero where within 40 miles when this plane lost an engine.  Let's not forget that this plane was not at 35,000 feet, but about 15,000 feet.  This plane was going to be over water for 5 plus hours with nowhere to land if they lost both engines.  All of this proves that if we don't add a third engine, then we are cold hearted and we don't car Granny or anyone else.

 

BTW, what plane has 3 engines, and if there is one how many are operating across the globe?  I'm betting zero, but I'm ready for a surprise.

Edited on Feb 25, 2021 12:25pm
Originally posted by: Boilerman

Kevin, you are correct that large planes can land in 40 miles, but only if at about 35,000 feet when power is lost.  The plane that blew the engine was not within 40 miles of an airport with a sufficient runway.  There are about 50 air fields within 3000 miles from Denver where this plane could land, and I'll bet zero where within 40 miles when this plane lost an engine.  Let's not forget that this plane was not at 35,000 feet, but about 15,000 feet.  This plane was going to be over water for 5 plus hours with nowhere to land if they lost both engines.  All of this proves that if we don't add a third engine, then we are cold hearted and we don't car Granny or anyone else.

 

BTW, what plane has 3 engines, and if there is one how many are operating across the globe?  I'm betting zero, but I'm ready for a surprise.


If jet engines fail at a rate of .000003 per flight, then the chance of both failing is .000000000009.  At the present rate of airline flights, that means that it would be predicted to happen one time somewhere around the world every.......3,000 years.

 

As opposed to the every 30 years (maybe) weather calamity in Texas. I know the difference is subtle Boilerman, but even you can get this one.


Originally posted by: Boilerman

Kevin, you are correct that large planes can land in 40 miles, but only if at about 35,000 feet when power is lost.  The plane that blew the engine was not within 40 miles of an airport with a sufficient runway.  There are about 50 air fields within 3000 miles from Denver where this plane could land, and I'll bet zero where within 40 miles when this plane lost an engine.  Let's not forget that this plane was not at 35,000 feet, but about 15,000 feet.  This plane was going to be over water for 5 plus hours with nowhere to land if they lost both engines.  All of this proves that if we don't add a third engine, then we are cold hearted and we don't car Granny or anyone else.

 

BTW, what plane has 3 engines, and if there is one how many are operating across the globe?  I'm betting zero, but I'm ready for a surprise.


The scenario I was discussing is if all engine power is lost, not just one engine. I was trying to show you that your statement that everyone on board will die if all the engines quit is wrong. Also, losing one engine does not force an immediate emergency landing.

 

Airliners with three engines include the Douglas DC-10, the Lockheed L-1011, the Boeing 727, and others by Hawker-Siddley, Tupolev, and Dassault. A major benefit of a third-engine-on-the-tail design is a reduction in drag, in addition to additional safety should one engine fail--because the remaining available thrust will be less asymmetric. That's why three-engine airliners have been and continue to be in wide use around the globe. One of the US's first successful commercial airliners was the Ford Trimotor, introduced in the late 1920s.

 

As I said, the primary reason for adding a third engine is fuel efficiency, not safety. Three engines producing the same thrust as two larger engines affords better fuel economy, because of the drag reduction inherent in such designs and less need to run the engines at max power while cruising.

Originally posted by: O2bnVegas

Poor Kevin, so misguided.  He'd be much safer in Arkansas.


Misguided? How so, and by whom? Keep in mind, I'm not a Republican.

Originally posted by: Kevin Lewis

The scenario I was discussing is if all engine power is lost, not just one engine. I was trying to show you that your statement that everyone on board will die if all the engines quit is wrong. Also, losing one engine does not force an immediate emergency landing.

 

Airliners with three engines include the Douglas DC-10, the Lockheed L-1011, the Boeing 727, and others by Hawker-Siddley, Tupolev, and Dassault. A major benefit of a third-engine-on-the-tail design is a reduction in drag, in addition to additional safety should one engine fail--because the remaining available thrust will be less asymmetric. That's why three-engine airliners have been and continue to be in wide use around the globe. One of the US's first successful commercial airliners was the Ford Trimotor, introduced in the late 1920s.

 

As I said, the primary reason for adding a third engine is fuel efficiency, not safety. Three engines producing the same thrust as two larger engines affords better fuel economy, because of the drag reduction inherent in such designs and less need to run the engines at max power while cruising.


Kevin, the day will come when a twin engine jet goes down because both engines failed.  I think two engines are fine, but every time the unimaginable, like a plane goes down, Liberals lose their minds and demand changes.  If hit happened tomorrow, you'd be on the bandwagon.

Originally posted by: Kevin Lewis

Misguided? How so, and by whom? Keep in mind, I'm not a Republican.


Oh...yeah. 

 

Well, actually, nobody would care about that.  You'd be welcome pretty much anywhere.  Somebody might offer you a drink, and maybe a Razorback tee shirt.  People are nice here.

 

Candy

Originally posted by: Boilerman

Kevin, the day will come when a twin engine jet goes down because both engines failed.  I think two engines are fine, but every time the unimaginable, like a plane goes down, Liberals lose their minds and demand changes.  If hit happened tomorrow, you'd be on the bandwagon.


According to the FAA, aircraft turbine (jet) engines have a failure rate of once every 375,000 operational hours. So for a three-hour flight, the odds of an engine failing are 125,000 to 1. To get the odds of both engines failing, simply take the square of 125,000. 15,625,000,000 to 1. The odds of both engines failing are over 15 billion to one against.

 

So don't hold your breath.

Come on Kevin...........there are zero DC 10's passenger planes flying across the globe.  Best I can tell, there was 11 727's flying passengers around the globe 2020.  There are zero L 1011's passenger jets any longer.  None of the 117 Hawker-Siddley Trident are still in the air.  I'm surprised that you didn't mention the 747 since zero are now being flown for as passenger planes.  All current passenger planes, with the exception of the near extinct Airbus 380, are now duel engine machines.  I guess there may be a few commuter airlines with single engine planes, but that's not what we're talking about here.

 

Furthermore jets with three engines are not more fuel efficient than jets with two engines.  You forget that my Vegas trip is comprised of a bunch of Purdue grads, and most are engineers.  In fact Graby (along with his wife), Won, Curly, Fish, Kramer (no longer attends this trip), and Geese all work or worked for McDonald Douglas and/or Boeing.  All but Won are engineers .  Lambsy, while not an engineer, did graduate from Purdue's aviation school and is a commercial airline captain.  Honer, another Purdue engineer, is Director of Sales for the aerospace division of a company that you would recognize.  Back to Graby and his wife.  They own an aerospace consulting company which provides aerospace technology experts to jet and jet component manufactures.

 

Thank god that we don't talk business during our Vegas trip.

Edited on Feb 26, 2021 4:55am
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