10 Presidents With Biggest Debt Increases --- Kevin, check out your Daddy Obama's budget defeceits before you complain about President Trump. What do you have to say now?
Edited on Nov 3, 2019 11:17pm
"Yes, Obama said it would save $2,500 in premiums. I suppose it is a matter of how you look at it. Are current premiums $2500 lower than they would have been under the then existing system? Yes, they are"
That isn't what was promised.
"Again, Tom trots out his proposal to euthanize the 5% of the population that uses the most medical resources. "
Once again, I never said that. I merely pointed out the major issue with medical costs.
Oregon Health Plan - OHP is available to adults who earn up to 138 percent of the Federal Poverty Level
warrencare is dependent on reimbursing providers at medicare rates, but most providers lose money with those rates. The results of this plan would cause providers to go out of business, thus creating a shortage.
The bipartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget says the warrencare numbers don't work & a massive tax increase will be needed.
Originally posted by: Mark
Originally posted by: Charles
Obamacare was supposed to save each family $2500 a year in premiums. Instead, premiums continue to increase and deductibles and out of pocket expenses have skyrocketed. Face it the ACA was a failure that did not live up to what we were promised.....affordable health care
Now democrats want to completely gut President Obama's signature accomplishment with a federal government takeover of the medical insurance industry. Why should we have any faith that a massive undertaking like eliminating the private medical insurance industry and handing it over to the federal government is going to work out well when they couldn't even deliver on their meager Obamacare promises?
They claim that we just need to remove the obscene insurance company and medical industry profits and raise taxes and that will lead to the fantasy land of free healthcare for all Americans. Well if medical industry profits were to blame for lousy healthcare then we'd expect a large non-profit healthcare provider like Kaiser Permanente to be offering super low cost medical services and dominate the industry. They dont. We'd expect the 23 Obamacare co-ops started with $2.4 billion in federal loans to be thriving by now, driving the for-profit insurance companies out of business with profit free savings for their memebers. Virtually every Obamacare co-op is now bankrupt. Explain that.
Rather than risk the health insurance of all Americans why not try out the Medicare for All scam in a single liberal state...like California or New York? Eliminate all private medical insurance, establish your wealth tax, tax your corporations and let the state offer free medical care for all. Let's see how that works out and then decide whether it's something the rest of us should do.
Charles, where to begin?
Yes, Obama said it would save $2,500 in premiums. I suppose it is a matter of how you look at it. Are current premiums $2500 lower than they would have been under the then existing system? Yes, they are.
I pointed out at the time (here at LVA) that Obamacare was at best a bandage to keep the current private system going a little bit longer and that is what it has done. Premiums will continue to skyrocket and would even more so under an Obamacare repeal. We know this because when Republicans voted on their various repeal bills the CBO scored them. The CBO said premiums would go up more without Obamacare. Is your position repeal Obamacare so premiums can go up even more?
We should have faith because the math works.
Under the current system, insurance companies have to generate massive profits to offset high executive compensation and return an annual increase in profits year over year to keep the shareholders happy.
Under the current system, we have to pay Insurance agents a commission to sell policies.
Under the current system, pharmaceutical companies have to generate massive profits to offset high executive compensation and return an annual increase in profits year over year to keep the shareholders happy.
Under the current system, pharmaceutical benefits management companies have to generate massive profits to offset high executive compensation and return an annual increase in profits year over year to keep the shareholders happy. Most people don't even know these unnecessary middlemen exist in the supply chain. They are best thought of as a distributor that buys the pharmaceuticals directly from the company that manufactures them, marks them up and then sells them to the pharmacy you buy the from.
We can get rid of all of this unnecessary fat by going to a system similar to what the rest of the world has. It isn't just a matter of getting rid of the insurance company.
We have already had a market failure, so it is time for the government to do a job that nobody else can. Maintaining the private system is asking the government to continue to fund billion-dollar for-profit businesses just for the sake of calling the healthcare system private. It is like the government paying farmers to grow crops there is no market demand for or the government paying automobile manufacturers to produce cars there is no demand for.
What do I mean by market failure? If you employ actuarial science, to devise a health insurance premium for a plan that would accept everyone and have the co-pays and deductibles of 25-30 years ago only the top 5% of earners could afford a policy. That is why the current system is so fucked up. Companies are forced to pay a portion of employees' premiums because the employees can't afford the premium otherwise. In the case of those working for a company that doesn't offer insurance, the self-employed and so on, under Obamacare the government pays that portion of the premium an employer would have in the past. What you are left with is a system that forces both the government and large corporations to subsidize these parasites just so the healthcare system can be called private.
If I want to start a business to keep myself employed even though nobody in the marketplace can afford my product or service, should the government and private companies be forced to subsidize the costs of my product/service so I can stay in business? And if so should I be kept in lavish style with huge executive compensation for myself?
Nobody really believes the ACA actually saved money on premiums for average Americans. It subsidized premiums for some people, but working men and women have seen premiums and deductibles and out of pocket expenses skyrocket. The "It would have been a lot more according to projections" argument is plain bullshit. Original projections didn't account for the extremely slow Obama recovery. Some prices were held in check just because of how shitty the economy was. There have been many studies on this and nowhere does any sane person claim the ACA actually saved Americans $2500 on premiums.
If as you claim that the real problem is insurance company profits, then why isn't the NON-PROFIT Kaisar Permante dominating the medical insurance industry? Why did the 23 Obamacare co-ops take 2.8 Billion in Federal Loans and most of them fail? Both had no profit motive whatsoever.
Or are you claiming the real problem is with the Pharmaceutical industry? I'm sure eventually you'll realize that to be consistent your answer will be to eliminate the pharmaceutical industry and have the federal government take that over too. Because profits are evil when it comes to healthcare and new drugs are a human right.
But regardless what you really believe about the ACA or evil insurance company profits, the transition to your nirvana of socialized medical insurance would be the real clusterfuck. Are you going to compensate stockholders for the crash that will surely happen when you eliminate the industry? How long will the corresponding depression last? Will the unemployment rate shoot up to 10%? 20%? What about all the doctors that close their practices as they are limited to Medicare reimbursement? You can point to other country's healthcare systems and claim they are successful, but none of them converted from private to public on this grand scale. Our federal government is incapable of this conversion. It's a recipe for a total disaster and you're treating it like a walk in the park. They couldn't even get the ACA right and that's penuts compared to your new fantasy.
Originally posted by: Kevin Lewis
Once again, I ask--how is this country so different from the rest of the Western industrialized world that they can have universal health care (without going "bankrupt") and we can't?
There's one thing that would have to come to pass--we'd have to reduce income inequality. And yes, that means tax the crap out of the rich, if necessary. A stable and happy society shouldn't have homeless people or billionaires.
The Warren plan's numbers do work--but as I said, they're based on some underlying assumptions. I don't agree that that plan or something similar wouldn't be affordable. We'd have to have the political will to afford it, meaning that enough people would have to feel that no American citizen should be without healthcare, to the point where they might have to give up some elements of their privileged position. I for one feel that if I had to wait three weeks instead of two to see my doctor, that would be worth it if that means that someone else gets to see a doctor who otherwise wouldn't be able to see one at all. And yes, I would be willing to pay higher taxes to see everyone have access to health care, even if my own such access didn't improve one bit.
That's the problem, though. Most people think only in terms of their own rice bowl. When the rubber hits the road, the fact that millions of citizens don't have full access to health care, and that many suffer and some die as a result, doesn't bother most people all that much. It bothers the crap out of me, but I appear to be in the minority.
If only we considered every citizen of this country as a member of one huge family!
The answer to your question is simple....we can. but the difference between our system and the rest of the world is not "Medicare for all". Thats only one component....and the only cost it reduces is the profit of private insurance companies. And I'm for that. but that does not put our healthcare costs in line with Canada,France, or Sweden..
If you dont address the underlying outrageous cost of healthcare in this country then Medicare for all is incredible expensive.
US doctors, hospitals, and drug companies should be compensated in line with the rest of the free, industrialized world. When that occurs Medicare for all will be much more affordable.
The chart you posted doesn't measure "budget defeceits," which is what I was talking about re Trump. It measures the national debt, which is something quite different. You should get yourself a high school civics textbook and educate yourself about that.
However, budget deficits add to the national debt, so I'm glad to see that you disapprove of Trump's reckless increases of that debt due to his tax breaks for the wealthy.
Also, Stalker, directly quoting your source re your hero:
On September 8, 2017, Trump signed a bill increasing the debt ceiling. Later that day, the debt exceeded $20 trillion for the first time in U.S. history. On February 9, 2018, Trump signed a bill suspending the debt ceiling until March 1, 2019. It was $22 trillion. In just two years,Trump has overseen the fastest dollar increase in the debt of any president.
Trump's Fiscal Year 2020 budget projects the debt would increase $5 trillion during his first term. That's as much as Obama added while fighting a recession. Trump has not fulfilled his campaign promise to cut the debt. Instead, he's done the opposite.
The national debt did not suddenly appear - it has taken decades to reach the level it is at now. Therefore, anyone thinking - and in Kevin's case I ues the word "thinking" loosely, the national debt would suddenly decrease or disappear in 2-3 years is totally delusional. Digging our nation out of the financial hole the DemocRats have dug will take years - put the blame where it belongs - you can start with the horrendous 8 years under Obeyme. Re; see the above posted chart.
Stalker, you got in a tizzy when I pointed out that Trump had drastically increased the deficit and you went running to the internet to find something that would attack Obama. You blundered into a discussion of the national debt, not even understanding the distinction, and then I pointed out that your source actually validated what I said. Thanks for the verification!
You're simply not equipped to engage in this discussion, especially since you don't even understand the difference between the national debt and the budget deficit.
If only you had attended high school!
Liberals of today would hate Teddy Roosevelt. He not only expected hard work by all able bodied Americans, he demanded it.
“It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed.”
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
“The only man who never makes mistakes is the man who never does anything.”
“When you’re at the end of your rope, tie a knot and hold on.”
“People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.”
“Courage is not having the strength to go on; it is going on when you don’t have the strength.”
“I am a part of everything that I have read.”
“Knowing what’s right doesn’t mean much unless you do what’s right.”
“Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.”
“To educate a person in the mind but not in morals is to educate a menace to society.”
“In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing.”
“Keep your eyes on the stars, and your feet on the ground.”
“Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.”
“A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.”
“Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell ’em, ‘Certainly I can!’ Then get busy and find out how to do it.”
“Never throughout history has a man who lived a life of ease left a name worth remembering.”
“When you play, play hard; when you work, don’t play at all.”
“It is only through labor and painful effort, by grim energy and resolute courage, that we move on to better things.”
“People ask the difference between a leader and a boss. The leader leads, and the boss drives.”
“Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure… than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
“Let us rather run the risk of wearing out than rusting out.”
“Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.”
“The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint to keep from meddling with them while they do it.”
“With self-discipline, almost anything is possible.”
“The most important single ingredient in the formula of success is knowing how to get along with people.”
“The boy who is going to make a great man must not make up his mind merely to overcome a thousand obstacles, but to win in spite of a thousand repulses and defeats.”
“Big jobs usually go to the men who prove their ability to outgrow small ones.”
“Nine-tenths of wisdom is being wise in time.”
“Old age is like everything else. To make a success of it, you’ve got to start young.”
“Courtesy is as much a mark of a gentleman as courage.”
“I care not what others think of what I do, but I care very much about what I think of what I do! That is character!”
“No man is worth his salt who is not ready at all times to risk his well-being, to risk his body, to risk his life, in a great cause.”
“This country has nothing to fear from the crooked man who fails. We put him in jail. It is the crooked man who succeeds who is a threat to this country.”
“A stream cannot rise larger than its source.”
“It is impossible to win the great prizes of life without running risks, and the greatest of all prizes are those connected with the home.”
“If I must choose between peace and righteousness, I choose righteousness.”
“Peace is normally a great good, and normally it coincides with righteousness, but it is righteousness and not peace which should bind the conscience of a nation as it should bind the conscience of an individual; and neither a nation nor an individual can surrender conscience to another’s keeping.”
“All the resources we need are in the mind.”
“Our chief usefulness to humanity rests on our combining power with high purpose. Power undirected by high purpose spells calamity, and high purpose by itself is utterly useless if the power to put it into effect is lacking.”
“There is only one quality worse than hardness of heart and that is softness of head.”
“In life, as in a football game, the principle to follow is: hit the line hard.”
“The men and women who have the right ideals… are those who have the courage to strive for the happiness which comes only with labor and effort and self-sacrifice, and those whose joy in life springs in part from power of work and sense of duty.”
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“At sometime in our lives a devil dwells within us, causes heartbreaks, confusion and troubles, then dies.”
“We must remember not to judge any public servant by any one act, and especially should we beware of attacking the men who are merely the occasions and not the cause of disaster.”
“Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive.”
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Um.....Teddy Roosevelt was a Republican.
And you might want to research his legacy on the environment before talking about modern parties and their divergence from him.
Originally posted by: PJ Stroh
Um.....Teddy Roosevelt was a Republican.
And you might want to research his legacy on the environment before talking about modern parties and their divergence from him.
He loved to go out into the wild and kill animals. Also, he treated Native American tribes shabbily.
He was a child of his time and cultivated the macho man shtick to the hilt.
