What happened to the MAGA promise of American energy independence?

Originally posted by: Kevin Lewis

As they have everywhere else...as they always have this time of year. 

 

But gee, if you're so concerned about gas prices, drop your orange master an email and ask him to remove tariffs on imported Canadian fossil fuels.


  Nowhere in the U.S. will gas prices esculate and stay higher than in California. The DemocRATs have run off Valero and Phillips 66 because of stringent state rules, regulatory pressures and rising costs. But don't take my word for it - Californians will be expressing their feelings....

Originally posted by: tom

Due to democrat rules, 2 of California's refineries will shut down in the first half creating a 300k barrel shortfall.  This shutdown cascades into Az and Nevada who get 80+% of their fuel from CA.


Yeah. Refinery capacity is actually a bigger influence on  domestic gasoline prices than oil cost per barrel. I think we need new refineries built. It doesn't make sense to me that people would prevent new more modernized refineries from being built. Especially if they are going to force current refineries to shut down. 

Originally posted by: LiveFreeNW

Yeah. Refinery capacity is actually a bigger influence on  domestic gasoline prices than oil cost per barrel. I think we need new refineries built. It doesn't make sense to me that people would prevent new more modernized refineries from being built. Especially if they are going to force current refineries to shut down. 


There was no "prevention." The companies that own those refineries were given five years--very generous advance notice --to comply with upgrade regulations. Most of it had to do with pollution control, which despite literally six decades of Republican yeeping, is and always has been a major concern in California due to urban density, climate patterns, and topography. L.A. would be as bad as Beijing if Republicans had had their way. Ronny Raygun in particular was opposed to pollution controls, even though he had always lived nearby and should have known better.

 

California isn't shutting down those refineries that Tom has now made 750 posts about. Their owners are shutting them down because they don't want to modernize. That may be a prudent fiscal decision in their eyes. After all:

 

1. Trump's tanking of the economy has weakened demand for fossil fuel products.

2. When the Turd croaks, Canadian Trumpiffs will die out--even under Cat Eater--thus giving us access once again to cheap fossil fuels, which Trump's hate campaign notwithstanding, they'd much rather ship across the border than pipe it to the coast and load it on tankers.

During the Biden adminsitration our resident oil experts told all of us that rig count was the measurement for how friendly the government is to the oil industry.

 

Funny - I dont hear them making that argument now.    

 

There's a reason why nobody takes them seriously


Originally posted by: Kevin Lewis

There was no "prevention." The companies that own those refineries were given five years--very generous advance notice --to comply with upgrade regulations. Most of it had to do with pollution control, which despite literally six decades of Republican yeeping, is and always has been a major concern in California due to urban density, climate patterns, and topography. L.A. would be as bad as Beijing if Republicans had had their way. Ronny Raygun in particular was opposed to pollution controls, even though he had always lived nearby and should have known better.

 

California isn't shutting down those refineries that Tom has now made 750 posts about. Their owners are shutting them down because they don't want to modernize. That may be a prudent fiscal decision in their eyes. After all:

 

1. Trump's tanking of the economy has weakened demand for fossil fuel products.

2. When the Turd croaks, Canadian Trumpiffs will die out--even under Cat Eater--thus giving us access once again to cheap fossil fuels, which Trump's hate campaign notwithstanding, they'd much rather ship across the border than pipe it to the coast and load it on tankers.


You are really inferring a lot from my post that just wasn't there. 

 

Nowhere in my post did I say California was exclusively responsible for shutting down the refineries. 

 

I said I think we need more new modern refineries. (New modernized refineries are more efficient and environmentally friendly)

 

 

I said it doesn't make sense for people to prevent new refineries from being built. (The word people doesn't mean just government. It includes regulators, politicians, voters, nonvoters, business managers, investors etc.) There are indeed a lot of people blocking new refineries from being built for a lot of different reasons. 

 

 

I also said that the need for new refineries is even greater when people are going to shut down old refineries. (people are indeed shutting down old refineries. Examples of the people shutting down old refineries are politicians, regulators, voters, nonvoters, business managers and investors) Old refineries are shutting down for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are too old and expensive to maintain. Sometimes they are too expensive to retrofit to newer environmental standards. There are a lot of reasons. 

 

To bring down the price of gasoline at the pump we need more refinery capacity. Cheaper oil isn't the only way. That was the point of my post. 

 

I'm not sure where in my post I said this was exclusively the fault of the state of California's government. 

 

Nowhere in my post did I mention any sort of partisan politics. 

 

Valero has pointed to years of regulatory pressure, environmental violations and a recent lawsuit settlement as factors behind its decision to close the Benicia refinery, according to a statement cited by ABC7 (4). During the company’s most recent earnings call, CEO Lane Riggs described California’s regulatory and enforcement environment as “the most stringent and difficult of anywhere else in North America."

 

Why is a state requiring a company to maintain a minimum inventory levels and profit margins?

On October 14, California Governor Gavin Newsom signed bill Abx2-1 into law, empowering California regulators to set and adjust minimum petroleum product inventory levels for refiners in the state,

 

California regulates oil refinery profit margins through the California Energy Commission (CEC)

Originally posted by: LiveFreeNW

You are really inferring a lot from my post that just wasn't there. 

 

Nowhere in my post did I say California was exclusively responsible for shutting down the refineries. 

 

I said I think we need more new modern refineries. (New modernized refineries are more efficient and environmentally friendly)

 

 

I said it doesn't make sense for people to prevent new refineries from being built. (The word people doesn't mean just government. It includes regulators, politicians, voters, nonvoters, business managers, investors etc.) There are indeed a lot of people blocking new refineries from being built for a lot of different reasons. 

 

 

I also said that the need for new refineries is even greater when people are going to shut down old refineries. (people are indeed shutting down old refineries. Examples of the people shutting down old refineries are politicians, regulators, voters, nonvoters, business managers and investors) Old refineries are shutting down for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are too old and expensive to maintain. Sometimes they are too expensive to retrofit to newer environmental standards. There are a lot of reasons. 

 

To bring down the price of gasoline at the pump we need more refinery capacity. Cheaper oil isn't the only way. That was the point of my post. 

 

I'm not sure where in my post I said this was exclusively the fault of the state of California's government. 

 

Nowhere in my post did I mention any sort of partisan politics. 

 


    I warned you when you first started posting here in the Sink. If you havn't figured it out yet, you soon will.

Originally posted by: David Miller

    I warned you when you first started posting here in the Sink. If you havn't figured it out yet, you soon will.


Yeah, but he's willing to put up with you anyway.

Originally posted by: LiveFreeNW

You are really inferring a lot from my post that just wasn't there. 

 

Nowhere in my post did I say California was exclusively responsible for shutting down the refineries. 

 

I said I think we need more new modern refineries. (New modernized refineries are more efficient and environmentally friendly)

 

 

I said it doesn't make sense for people to prevent new refineries from being built. (The word people doesn't mean just government. It includes regulators, politicians, voters, nonvoters, business managers, investors etc.) There are indeed a lot of people blocking new refineries from being built for a lot of different reasons. 

 

 

I also said that the need for new refineries is even greater when people are going to shut down old refineries. (people are indeed shutting down old refineries. Examples of the people shutting down old refineries are politicians, regulators, voters, nonvoters, business managers and investors) Old refineries are shutting down for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are too old and expensive to maintain. Sometimes they are too expensive to retrofit to newer environmental standards. There are a lot of reasons. 

 

To bring down the price of gasoline at the pump we need more refinery capacity. Cheaper oil isn't the only way. That was the point of my post. 

 

I'm not sure where in my post I said this was exclusively the fault of the state of California's government. 

 

Nowhere in my post did I mention any sort of partisan politics. 

 


I wasn't responding to just your post. The whining and bitching about California was exclusively the province of David and Tom. Why they constantly (as in constantly, constantly) do that is a mystery, since neither lives there. Maybe they were thrown out of the state?

 

I think you missed my point, which maybe I didn't make clear. Neither California nor any other state forces Big Oil to shut down refineries. They impose regulations that may result in significant expenses to upgrade them. But an older refinery will need upgrades and renovations no matter what. Of COURSE they blame it on regulatory agencies. That's been how Big Business has always reacted to safety mandates, proper treatment of workers, pollution controls, etc. "They're cutting off the lifeblood of American business!!!" thundered JQ Pigfucker when California told him he had to keep a first aid kit on the factory floor, or stop dumping toxic waste into the nearby river.

 

I've never been a big fan of the Beeg Eeeevil Gummint Agencies Ruining Noble American Business shtick. If it weren't for arm-twisting by said government agencies, pollution would be apocalyptic and working conditions would be deplorable.

 

And it costs Big Oil $$$ to upgrade? Boo fucking hoo. We've been emptying our wallets into their greedy open mouths for decades. 

Originally posted by: Kevin Lewis

I wasn't responding to just your post. The whining and bitching about California was exclusively the province of David and Tom. Why they constantly (as in constantly, constantly) do that is a mystery, since neither lives there. Maybe they were thrown out of the state?

 

I think you missed my point, which maybe I didn't make clear. Neither California nor any other state forces Big Oil to shut down refineries. They impose regulations that may result in significant expenses to upgrade them. But an older refinery will need upgrades and renovations no matter what. Of COURSE they blame it on regulatory agencies. That's been how Big Business has always reacted to safety mandates, proper treatment of workers, pollution controls, etc. "They're cutting off the lifeblood of American business!!!" thundered JQ Pigfucker when California told him he had to keep a first aid kit on the factory floor, or stop dumping toxic waste into the nearby river.

 

I've never been a big fan of the Beeg Eeeevil Gummint Agencies Ruining Noble American Business shtick. If it weren't for arm-twisting by said government agencies, pollution would be apocalyptic and working conditions would be deplorable.

 

And it costs Big Oil $$$ to upgrade? Boo fucking hoo. We've been emptying our wallets into their greedy open mouths for decades. 


I am all for reasonable environmental, labor, and safety regulations. I am not aware enough of the specifics of the California regulations in question to offer any sort of informed opinion as to their reasonableness. 

 

 Businesses can and should use a portion of their profits to upgrade their infrastructure. 

 

I think the shortage of refinery capacity is due to many factors. Over regulation might be a part of that. Corporate corruption and cronyism is almost certainly a larger contributor to the problem. 

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