Miami punts on 4th and 4 at the Pats 41 down 4 with 5 minutes left

[QUOTE=tribecalledjeff;8915]You and Fezzik have both brought up excellent points. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] And you are wrong yet again. :rolleyes:
well,as i posted. i agree with 99.9% of the posts made by a lot of the guys about bad strategy. i know the ev of a punt vs. go for it, etc. ...read the books, majored in econ with a lot of stats, etc. having said that, there are always extraneous factors in each situation, and the ev figures are from game COMPOSITES. if this is SO OBVIOUS IN THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION, provide DETAILS. exactly and specifically, why is it a no brainer? i will say i could understand going for it, but i don't think it's automatic. if you guys are so smart about this SPECIFIC situation/personnel, tell us all about it. i'm listening....
Sorry for the brevity But this is so clear cut, it is ridiculous. WHY PUNTING IS BEYOND STUPID: 1. Every guy with NE ML bets if asked "what would you like Mia to do?" would scream "PUNT PLEASE GOD PUNT". 2. Punting is a variance reducer in the score. When down 7 as a 11 point dog, you want to INCREASE variance, not reduce it. 3. EVERY paper ever written explains well why, when in doubt in any marginal situation, going for it is the right play. 4. Basic strategy further says 4th and less than 5 is ALWAYS a go for situation between the 50 and 35. 5. In in running wagering Mia might have been around +1600 novig to win prior to the play (or something like it). As soon as the punt team runs out BOOM, no vig would storm up to +2500ish....the numbers aren't important, it'sthe movement up. 6. The total was 47......offenses had the edge,more reason to go. 7. Defenses are at a disadvantage late in the game, more reason to go. 8. It is completely wrong to say "you lose if you don't make it". You actually lose very litte!! In that you need a quick stop anyways OR the game is over. So you give up 27 yards in field position. Any offense vs. a prevent D has a high percentage of making this. So by going for it you get 1. A 44% chance to have a drive in great field position AND a 56% chance of failing on the 4th down play, and then a 50% or so shot at gettting another possesion short timed in bad field position. OR 2. You punt like an idiot. Now you have A 50% shot of getting the ball back STILL short timed in good field postion (but still likely worse than where you were by 15 yards!!!) So your chance of scoring under Option (1) is Similar to Option(2) when comparing your expecation of scoring on the current drive vs. scoring on a possible subsequent drive by punting. HOWEVER Option 1 has a nice resurrection chance of scoring on the 2nd drive, something option 2 lacks. Sorry to be so emphatic, this is 'solve by inspecttion obvous'. In fact, if Mia was on THEIR OWN 40, it is still correct to go for it, but at least we can have a rationale good spirited debate, not a "you have lost your mind to punt" discussion.
On their own 30 they should have gone for it.

A good rule of thumb is that if you're down 12+ in the 2h, you shouldn't kick the ball in any way, shape, or form.
I thought Miami was at or around their own 39 or 40 yardline.
[QUOTE=flipper;9057]I thought Miami was at or around their own 39 or 40 yardline.[/QUOTE] https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20091108_MIA@NE 4-5-NE42 (5:45) B.Fields punts 33 yards to NE 9, Center-J.Denney, fair catch by W.Welker.
[QUOTE=bobbyt1962;8901]i read ... game theory (mathematical and football)[/QUOTE] You cite nothing. Romer showed it would be correct to go for it in the [I]first [/I]quarter. At the end of the game the losing team must go for it even more. As Fezzik explains, the desired outcome after punting is to get the ball back with less time and worse field position. https://www.advancednflstats.com/2008/11/romer-4th-down-study-underestimates.html
i cited nothing because in most cases, i'd go for it here. but unlike you and most others, i believe that many of the studies (including romer) would be a bit (not much, though) different if qualitative factors were introduced. who knows how many of romers' 700 data points are from situations like this ? also, i don't know the extent to which they deal with "end game" strategies (as opposed to the first 50-55 minutes). i agree with the general premise that a punt here is bad. i'd have brought pat white in and run a pass/run option. having said that, there is more than one possible (desired) outcome after a punt : to get a turnover, maybe even on the punt itself, let alone a fumble or tipped ball on a pass. or block a punt for a td, or run it back for a td. i know, no one, not even a N.O. rb on mnf fumbles just running out the clock (2 minutes, not 6). miami's best two units are their run defense, run offense, and their punter, who has a terrific record of nailing inside the 20 (he did here too--ne 9). i don't think i'm in bad shape if i'm miami with ne inside their 20 and 6 minutes left. the average nfl net punt is 35 or so, so a 3 and out keeps my playbook open in terms of time remaining and downs/distance, since i get the ball back at around the 50. average nfl possession is close to 3 minutes. i think if miami had created a 3 and out (failed !!) which was a greater than 50% probability (to me) they might have made out ok. my whole point in the response is/was that most of the posts regarding coaching/strategic decisions are right on in chiding those who make them, like fg's from the one yard line in the first quarter, etc. it's just that with this team and situation, i do think there is room for disagreement. i disagree with sparano, but i can see where he's coming from---he thought the defense would AT LEAST get a three and out, if not a turnover. ARE YOU ALWAYS RIGHT, WITH NO ALLOWANCE FOR VARIANCE ?
If NFL coaches agreed with me............... They would be right a lot more often.