Saints call time-out 2:02 left 1h, driving

Mike, neither you nor me are in a position to disagree with Gruden. As ahearnb said, when in doubt I'll defer to those smarter than me. But for the record, I don't have a problem with the disagreeing and I enjoy the discussion. I get irritated when people spout off about how the coach is a moron and an idiot, when in reality it's most of the time a marginal decision either way. Sometimes it's quite obvious, but look at this thread - there are opinions on both sides. If that's the case, disagreeing is one thing. Calling the side that has valid points and very intelligent people agreeing with it dumb is just ridiculous. Most decisions are probabilities, not certainties, and there is variance. If a decision is 60% long term to work, but doesn't in any given situation, the coach is often called an idiot. That's unfair, and people just like to puff their chests about how smart they are by calling the guy who quite often made the right decision a moron, as though that adds validity to their point. Are there situations where it is an obvious, 100% mistake? Absolutely. But they are not near as often as those on this board would like to believe.

How is Gruden, who has watched probably 900 game endings, usually without a big rooting interest, and without a math/probability background, smarter at football strategy than me, who has watched 10,000 game endings, always with a rooting interest, and is very strong with simple probability? Change 'me' to Fezzik, Perp Czech, Weighing the Odds, and many many more and the same applies.

[QUOTE=custer;8284]How is Gruden, who has watched probably 900 game endings, usually without a big rooting interest, and without a math/probability background, smarter at football strategy than me, who has watched 10,000 game endings, always with a rooting interest, and is very strong with simple probability? Change 'me' to Fezzik, Perp Czech, Weighing the Odds, and many many more and the same applies.[/QUOTE] Because football was his job. He lived/thought/breathed football every minute of every day (in Gruden's case, that was about 20 hours a day) for 22 years. He discussed strategy with other people that do the same all day long. Cominbed, they have watched 100x the game film as you or Fezzik. And he watched them objectively, without a rooting interest and without a point spread in mind. That helps, not hurts. Thinking that you know more about football than a Super Bowl winning coach is one of the most arrogant things that I have ever heard. Is he right all of the time? No. And sure, he makes mistakes. But he knows a hell of a lot more about football than you. And yes, that includes end game situations. I don't know what you did or do for a living, but think of one of the most respected people in that profession. Do you really think that someone that hasn't done that job, EVER, but has just observed it from the outside, could do a better job?

It's quite obvious these coaches get the job a lot of times because yes they love football, but they are good managers of people. They know how to manage other players and coaches, that makes them great coaches. You wonder why Bill Belichick is regarded as a very smart coach. First, look at who he worked for (Parcells) and you will see a very good coaching tree. Second, look at many of the coaches who now have worked under him. Now we have to look at the football side, there's a reason why his teams are fundamentally better the opposition, but the decision making part of the game is big. There's a reason he goes for it on 4th and 1 from his own 30 when the Falcons punt on 4th and 3 (not sure) on the Pats 41. Gruden has studied more football film them we have, there's no doubting that. But Gruden, is watching team tendencies, how certain plays work, etc. He's not analyzing situational football like when to go for 2, when to kick the fg down 11. There's a lot more to coaching he has to look for then this crap. Like Fezzik always says, just hire him for 100k per year. Gruden doesn't have the time to be analyzing things like this.

[QUOTE=Justin1820;8297]It's quite obvious these coaches get the job a lot of times because yes they love football, but they are good managers of people. They know how to manage other players and coaches, that makes them great coaches. [B]You wonder why Bill Belichick is regarded as a very smart [/B][B]coach[/B]. First, look at who he worked for (Parcells) and you will see a very good coaching tree. Second, look at many of the coaches who now have worked under him. Now we have to look at the football side, there's a reason why his teams are fundamentally better the opposition, but the decision making part of the game is big. There's a reason he goes for it on 4th and 1 from his own 30 when the Falcons punt on 4th and 3 (not sure) on the Pats 41. Gruden has studied more football film them we have, there's no doubting that. But Gruden, is watching team tendencies, how certain plays work, etc. He's not analyzing situational football like when to go for 2, when to kick the fg down 11. There's a lot more to coaching he has to look for then this crap. Like Fezzik always says, just hire him for 100k per year. Gruden doesn't have the time to be analyzing things like this.[/QUOTE] Good post but I do not wonder about Belichick and why he is a great coach. He has an incredible football mind. He is a defensive wizard, His schemes are the best. He is the best.

[QUOTE=tribecalledjeff;8293]Because football was his job. He lived/thought/breathed football every minute of every day (in Gruden's case, that was about 20 hours a day) for 22 years. He discussed strategy with other people that do the same all day long. Cominbed, they have watched 100x the game film as you or Fezzik. And he watched them objectively, without a rooting interest and without a point spread in mind. That helps, not hurts. Thinking that you know more about football than a Super Bowl winning coach is one of the most arrogant things that I have ever heard. Is he right all of the time? No. And sure, he makes mistakes. But he knows a hell of a lot more about football than you. And yes, that includes end game situations. I don't know what you did or do for a living, but think of one of the most respected people in that profession. Do you really think that someone that hasn't done that job, EVER, but has just observed it from the outside, could do a better job?[/QUOTE] Gruden is a genius. And yet, on national television he admitted to (and was proud of!!) not knowing the rules -- some of them very basic. Let's see, we've got the retired pee wee football coach (tribecalledjeff) against the professional sports gamblers (Fezzik, Custer, PC, Weighing the Odds) -- I wonder who the onlooking viewers are going to side with. A strong argument you've presented here...

You can't argue with Tribe, He knows everything. If you don't believe me just ask him. :)

[QUOTE=ahearnb;8303]Gruden is a genius. And yet, on national television he admitted to (and was proud of!!) not knowing the rules -- some of them very basic. Let's see, we've got the retired pee wee football coach (tribecalledjeff) against the professional sports gamblers (Fezzik, Custer, PC, Weighing the Odds) -- I wonder who the onlooking viewers are going to side with. A strong argument you've presented here...[/QUOTE] But you never even *played* the game and certainly trollcalledjeff has spent more time analyzing Pop Warner game film than you have chasing RAS CFB totals. :D

Tribe, I agree with this one being more subjective and a matter of opinion. I don't think it was but if both Jaws/Gruden and others saw it differently, I'm reasonable enough to accept a difference of opinion. But I was in athletics my whole life through going to college on BB scholarship and it was about 50/50in terms of playing for smart coaches - albeit, I wasn't at pro level but I doubt it's much different. It's like business, worked for a lot of CFO's/CEO's and some are good, some are not, some you're amazed how they got there - same with coaches. And think we saw it again tonight - Buf up 6 with 3 TO's left - but BG driving inside the Buf 20 and likely will score TD - about 1:30 left and Buf should have started to take TO's but didn't - even announcer mentioned it - BG did score and take lead and Buf had 30 seconds left on clock. Could have had more than a minute and likely a TO or two left. I love Gil the HC there, but he blew the time mgt at end - IMO of course.

"but he blew the time mgt at end - IMO of course." 'IMO of course'. Its not your 'opinion', its the obvious right answer. You cannot make a logical arguement against using the timeouts there. Lets see, if you stop them, you can still kneel and end the game even after using the timeouts. If they score, you will have more time if you used the timeouts. Its so easy its a joke. Yet these guys make these kinds of obvious errors all the time. So much so that we have a 'no-bitching about strategy blunders' rule in our office. You could literally do it non stop all weekend. You're allowed to point it out and laugh, but that's it. Its part of the game. With all this talk about other errors in last night's game, I haven't even read about the big blunder. It was impossible for the Saints to lose if they had knelt on the ball when they got it at midfield. Yeah, they would have had to punt, but there wouldn't have been enough time for a td, an onside kick, and then another td. It would have been impossible for Atlanta to win. By running the ball, you risk injuries to your players (and the free timeout that causes) and fumbling. What do you know, both these things happened and the game ended with Atlanta throwing into the end zone trying to set up a game tying conv. Maybe tribe can tell us how Sean Payton is smarter than us by using his strategy.