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$15 Dollar Minimum Wage Passed In California And New York

alanleroyII
alanleroyII
Apr 7, 2016
12:18am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
Yep! That's worked out great in Bangladesh.
So the answer to Bangladesh's economic problems is to just institute a $15.00 an hour minimum wage. Brilliant. I wonder why they didn't think of that. Heck, might as well make it $100 an hour and make the country rich.

pjstroh
pjstroh
Apr 7, 2016
12:25am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: alanleroyII
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
Yep! That's worked out great in Bangladesh.
So the answer to Bangladesh's economic problems is to just institute a $15.00 an hour minimum wage. Brilliant. I wonder why they didn't think of that. Heck, might as well make it $100 an hour and make the country rich.


If you ever picked up a history book you would see that it worked for America....unless you preferred the society that came before it.

AlanLeroy's free-market Utopia brought to you by history.

alanleroyII
alanleroyII
Apr 7, 2016
12:46am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
Quote
Originally posted by: alanleroyII
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
Yep! That's worked out great in Bangladesh.
So the answer to Bangladesh's economic problems is to just institute a $15.00 an hour minimum wage. Brilliant. I wonder why they didn't think of that. Heck, might as well make it $100 an hour and make the country rich.


If you ever picked up a history book you would see that it worked for America....unless you preferred the society that came before it.

AlanLeroy's free-market Utopia brought to you by history.
Except (of course) I'm only talking about minimum wage laws which I believe prevent the lowest skilled workers from entering the labor market...This has nothing to do with child labor laws or laws to protect worker safety or food safety or drunk driving or any other laws you wish to change the subject to.



alanleroyII
alanleroyII
Apr 7, 2016
1:03am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
The employee base of any operating McDonalds (and most other low skill enterprises) is half what it was 25 years ago due to automation -
And so what makes you think that the government raising the cost of labor to business won't just accelerate the march to automation? A $15.00 minimum wage doesn't help the newly unemployed.

The raw truth is that in the next 20 years smart machines are going to replace most of these workers anyway. The higher minimum wage just makes it happen a little sooner. The real answer has nothing to do with the government dictating the price of labor...but we should at least agree on what is the real problem.

Is it...how to eliminate poverty?
How to improve the quality of life for average Americans?
What is a fair hourly wage?
How to raise wages without eliminating jobs?
What is the future for low skilled workers and how does increasing the minimum wage change that?


pjstroh
pjstroh
Apr 7, 2016
1:43am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: alanleroyII
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
The employee base of any operating McDonalds (and most other low skill enterprises) is half what it was 25 years ago due to automation -
And so what makes you think that the government raising the cost of labor to business won't just accelerate the march to automation? A $15.00 minimum wage doesn't help the newly unemployed.

The raw truth is that in the next 20 years smart machines are going to replace most of these workers anyway. The higher minimum wage just makes it happen a little sooner. The real answer has nothing to do with the government dictating the price of labor...but we should at least agree on what is the real problem.

Is it...how to eliminate poverty?
How to improve the quality of life for average Americans?
What is a fair hourly wage?
How to raise wages without eliminating jobs?
What is the future for low skilled workers and how does increasing the minimum wage change that?


I don't know - and neither do you. And if wages are forced to grow in the same mythical free-market scenario you present - why wouldn't that cause the same acceleration to automation? The difference between your scenario and mine is the difference between historical facts and your bullshit fantasy world where unfettered capitalism creates wealth for unskilled workers.

The only solution for automation is ultimately to reduce the size of the world's population. And you will open up a huge shit-storm if you try and infringe upon anyone's right to become the next Octomom. Like most problems we wont deal with it until its a crisis.


In the meantime - the data does not backup the bullshit narrative that employers cant afford to pay their workers a living wage.


alanleroyII
alanleroyII
Apr 7, 2016
3:20am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
And if wages are forced to grow in the same mythical free-market scenario you present - why wouldn't that cause the same acceleration to automation? The difference between your scenario and mine is the difference between historical facts and your bullshit fantasy world where unfettered capitalism creates wealth for unskilled workers. .

Except I never said that unfettered capitalism creates wealth for unskilled workers. I said that minimum wage laws prevent the lowest skilled workers from getting jobs.

Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
The only solution for automation is ultimately to reduce the size of the world's population. And you will open up a huge shit-storm if you try and infringe upon anyone's right to become the next Octomom. Like most problems we wont deal with it until its a crisis.

That is certainly not the only solution. Here...I'll give you a couple of others...a short run and a long run:

1. People could develop skills that are in demand rather than go through life as hamburger filppers. Hey! Robot designers might be a good skill to develop!
2. People can participate in the Capital part of Capitalism. This could take a couple of generations, but if the value of labor declines because of the introduction of capital then labor needs more ownership of capital to participate in the economy. I'll refer you to the theories of Louis O. Kelso to show you how that might happen without a revolution. Louis O. Kelso

What I'm convinced is not a solution is to remove the price of Labor from the realm of supply and demand....even if it means the Government just giving needy people money that they've taken from the rich.

Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
In the meantime - the data does not backup the bullshit narrative that employers cant afford to pay their workers a living wage.

Except that's not the issue. There are several possible economic scenarios here...and I'm sure all will occur.

1. Some employers will outsource to other countries with cheaper labor if they can.
2. Some employers will take less profits if they must.
3. Some will raise prices if they have any pricing power.
4. Some will replace workers with machines or cut corners or find other ways to reduce labor costs.
5. Employers who are on the edge of failing will just close...and their competitors will survive.

PJ seems to think #2 is the outcome of this...and he's right...for many companies. But 4 out of 5 of these scenarios are bad outcomes for labor.

And then there's this concept of a 'Living Wage'. How did you calculate that? It costs a lot less to live in Fresno than it does San Francisco, but our businesses are going to be forced to pay the same $15 an hour as companies in SF or LA. That could have a horrible economic impact around here. Why not at least tie the damn 'living wage' to the cost of living?

And a teenager on his first job...what's his 'Living Wage' compared to a 30 year old with a Family of 4? Entry level jobs aren't supposed to support families. If you're flipping burgers at McDonalds supporting a family, you might just need to work a second job or get some better skills.

pjstroh
pjstroh
Apr 7, 2016
4:43am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: alanleroyII

Except that's not the issue. There are several possible economic scenarios here...and I'm sure all will occur.

1. Some employers will outsource to other countries with cheaper labor if they can.
2. Some employers will take less profits if they must.
3. Some will raise prices if they have any pricing power.
4. Some will replace workers with machines or cut corners or find other ways to reduce labor costs.
5. Employers who are on the edge of failing will just close...and their competitors will survive.



Earlier in this thread you said we can solve the wage problem by getting rid of immigrants and letting supply/demand increase wages to $15. And I take it you believe that's a good thing (even though its bullshit). But if government mandates a minimum wage then you run off a litany of consequences that result from those higher wages.

Can you explain why those same consequences don't manifest themselves in your scenario? Or were you just trying to change the subject?

Boilerman
Boilerman
Apr 7, 2016
4:53am
Block User
If raising minimum wage has no effect on employment numbers as PJ claims, then I suggest that we increase minimum wage to $200 per hour. These employees will be earning $400,000 annually, generating lots of governmental tax revenue, and it'll be a win win win for everyone.

The truth is that raising wages kills jobs. A small increase in wages kills a small amount of jobs, while a $200 per hour increase kills all jobs at a fast food joint. When a cost goes up, you get less of it.



Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
Quote
Originally posted by: alanleroyII
Quote
Originally posted by: pjstroh
The employee base of any operating McDonalds (and most other low skill enterprises) is half what it was 25 years ago due to automation -
And so what makes you think that the government raising the cost of labor to business won't just accelerate the march to automation? A $15.00 minimum wage doesn't help the newly unemployed.

The raw truth is that in the next 20 years smart machines are going to replace most of these workers anyway. The higher minimum wage just makes it happen a little sooner. The real answer has nothing to do with the government dictating the price of labor...but we should at least agree on what is the real problem.

Is it...how to eliminate poverty?
How to improve the quality of life for average Americans?
What is a fair hourly wage?
How to raise wages without eliminating jobs?
What is the future for low skilled workers and how does increasing the minimum wage change that?


I don't know - and neither do you. And if wages are forced to grow in the same mythical free-market scenario you present - why wouldn't that cause the same acceleration to automation? The difference between your scenario and mine is the difference between historical facts and your bullshit fantasy world where unfettered capitalism creates wealth for unskilled workers.

The only solution for automation is ultimately to reduce the size of the world's population. And you will open up a huge shit-storm if you try and infringe upon anyone's right to become the next Octomom. Like most problems we wont deal with it until its a crisis.


In the meantime - the data does not backup the bullshit narrative that employers cant afford to pay their workers a living wage.


forkushV
forkushV
Apr 7, 2016
5:13am
Block User
Quote
Originally posted by: Boilerman
If raising minimum wage has no effect on employment numbers as PJ claims, then I suggest that we increase minimum wage to $200 per hour. These employees will be earning $400,000 annually, generating lots of governmental tax revenue, and it'll be a win win win for everyone...
Okay you've convinced me; we shouldn't have an outrageous minimum wage, but a reasonable one.

So is $15 reasonable? If the minimum wage from 1968 had kept up with worker productivity gains, it would now be around $20 per hour. If it had kept up with inflation it would be more than that I'm pretty sure.

So $15 sounds reasonable to me.

Boilerman
Boilerman
Apr 7, 2016
5:37am
Block User
Boiler believes that any minimum wage is unreasonable, wrong, and anti-productive job killers. Increasing the cost to business, and you get less of that business.

This explains why American manufacturers have been fleeing the United States in favor of foreign production locations. Boiler believes that manufacturers are responding to the high costs of doing business in America. These costs include high taxation, high costs of regulation, high costs due to EPA standards, and high employee wage costs, and high insurance costs. Complain if you like, but complaining won't stop companies from finding ways to lower costs.


Quote
Originally posted by: forkushV
Quote
Originally posted by: Boilerman
If raising minimum wage has no effect on employment numbers as PJ claims, then I suggest that we increase minimum wage to $200 per hour. These employees will be earning $400,000 annually, generating lots of governmental tax revenue, and it'll be a win win win for everyone...
Okay you've convinced me; we shouldn't have an outrageous minimum wage, but a reasonable one.

So is $15 reasonable? If the minimum wage from 1968 had kept up with worker productivity gains, it would now be around $20 per hour. If it had kept up with inflation it would be more than that I'm pretty sure.

So $15 sounds reasonable to me.


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