Arizona death panel?

Quote

Originally posted by: jphelan
So here we are 4 years after this thread and we have similar insurance policies nationwide and a shortage of organs to transplant. So who decides who gets a kidney? I assume it is the medical community on the basis of need - in essence a "death panel" as it has always been. I am still more comfortable with the medical community making this decision than the government. We are still in desperate need for Tort reform and allowing insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines.


Geez, jphelan. It wasn't, and isn't "the government" who decides, and it IS medical specialists who determine risk versus benefit of kidney transplant for the individual patient. You can use the term "medical communities", because the 'community' of medical specialists (like the AMA, for one) do set standards for the practice of their field. So, good news. But there is no longer a panel or committee, rather individual pratitioners who see patients and evaluate their condition, make recommendations, refer them to a kidney specialist (not to a panel) when indicated.

OK, you personally could label it death panels in the 1950s-60s, but you would be wrong. Those panels or committees included medical experts making excruciating decisions for "life". The few dialysis machines or centers with a machine or two sprung up here and there were due to the dedication of individual physicians who knew about dialysis, that their otherwise healthy patients with kidney failure could have their lives extended if only this procedure, dialysis, was available.

It was bloody, it was painful, it was costly to manufacture machines, to buy machines, to train and pay staff to operate the machines. Did I mention that one dialysis session could take 8 hours back then, if everything went smoothly, and longer than that to sterilize and re-set the equipment for another patient? Actually, sometimes 24 or 48 hour treatments were done, to give somebody a week's worth of life until he could get another treatment. And this was nobody but the doctors and nurses, not mandated by anybody, no rules, just willing to work long and hard hours to help the patients and expand this area of knowledge and practice.

My nursing career put me smack in the middle of dialysis and transplantation (1974-2014), so I know of what I speak. Thankfully, the modern era of dialysis was beginning.

The history of dialysis is enormously interesting. Dialysis machines took up a whole room, kinda like computers did. The first treatments of record occurred in Holland during the Nazi occupation, under covert conditions (by the good guys, not the Nazis). Very primitive machinery, limited successes. Like other inventions that ultimately proved successful.

We are now in modern times. EVERY person with kidney failure is elgible for dialysis, even if they haven't got a penny. EVERY dialysis facility is REQUIRED to educate EVERY patient about kidney transplantation, and give the patient opportunity to opt in or out for an evaluation for a transplant. If the patient wants to be evaluated, it is REQUIRED that the center refer him to a transplant surgeon (in some cases a transplant nephrologist) for evaluation.

The transplant medical experts make decisions about the patient's medical condition and whether or not they recommend transplant, based on what they believe is in the patient's best interest, as in all decisions regarding medical intervention.

It is all very complex, if anyone wants to ask a question or challenge me.

But I need to go and do some house cleaning. But, please, ask me anything about it.

Can you tell I am passionate about this topic? Retired, but still passionate.

I really appreciate your passion and first-hand knowledge on this subject, O2bnVegas.

The struggle to decide how to allocate our limited medical resources is not a new fight. You've shown that, with regard to dialysis, its been going on for many decades. It's a terrible thing that these hard decisions have to be made, but they do.

And it's shameful that people have demonized President Obama and other leaders for trying to confront this difficult situation head-on.

Quote

Originally posted by: Chilcoot
Quote

Originally posted by: O2bnVegas
It is reasonable for Chil to resurrect this thread, since there is new information out concerning end of life discussion and compensating the MD for it, similar to a consultation for diabetes or heart problems.
Thanks, O2bnVegas.

Lots of the folks here hate it when we remind them of the things they've written in this forum. (And for good reason.)

Google is not hard.


We just don't know how lucky we are to have you remind us of threads that nobody gives a shit about anymore. You are such a loser!

Quote

Originally posted by: Roulette Man
Quote

Originally posted by: jphelan
Quote

Originally posted by: Roulette Man
I see a post from Dan Diego above. Is Dan Diego related to our Don Diego?


I doubt it because the post uses the word "I" which seems to be a word that does not exist in the vocabulary of DonDiego


I'm not asking if it is Don Diego, I'm asking if he is related. I would not expect all Diegos from the Don Diego family to speak and write in third person, but I could be wrong on that.
DonDiego is unaware of any legitimate relationship to Dan Diego. Nonetheless, DonDiego may well be unaware of the friskier nature of some blood relatives, and cannot rule it out altogether.

Quote

Originally posted by: esteskefauver
Quote

Originally posted by: Chilcoot
Quote

Originally posted by: O2bnVegas
It is reasonable for Chil to resurrect this thread, since there is new information out concerning end of life discussion and compensating the MD for it, similar to a consultation for diabetes or heart problems.
Thanks, O2bnVegas.

Lots of the folks here hate it when we remind them of the things they've written in this forum. (And for good reason.)

Google is not hard.


We just don't know how lucky we are to have you remind us of threads that nobody gives a shit about anymore. You are such a loser!
I find tremendous comfort knowing that this is about the best the other side has.
Quote

Originally posted by: O2bnVegas
Quote

Originally posted by: jphelan
So here we are 4 years after this thread and we have similar insurance policies nationwide and a shortage of organs to transplant. So who decides who gets a kidney? I assume it is the medical community on the basis of need - in essence a "death panel" as it has always been. I am still more comfortable with the medical community making this decision than the government. We are still in desperate need for Tort reform and allowing insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines.


Geez, jphelan. It wasn't, and isn't "the government" who decides, and it IS medical specialists who determine risk versus benefit of kidney transplant for the individual patient. You can use the term "medical communities", because the 'community' of medical specialists (like the AMA, for one) do set standards for the practice of their field. So, good news. But there is no longer a panel or committee, rather individual pratitioners who see patients and evaluate their condition, make recommendations, refer them to a kidney specialist (not to a panel) when indicated.

OK, you personally could label it death panels in the 1950s-60s, but you would be wrong. Those panels or committees included medical experts making excruciating decisions for "life". The few dialysis machines or centers with a machine or two sprung up here and there were due to the dedication of individual physicians who knew about dialysis, that their otherwise healthy patients with kidney failure could have their lives extended if only this procedure, dialysis, was available.

It was bloody, it was painful, it was costly to manufacture machines, to buy machines, to train and pay staff to operate the machines. Did I mention that one dialysis session could take 8 hours back then, if everything went smoothly, and longer than that to sterilize and re-set the equipment for another patient? Actually, sometimes 24 or 48 hour treatments were done, to give somebody a week's worth of life until he could get another treatment. And this was nobody but the doctors and nurses, not mandated by anybody, no rules, just willing to work long and hard hours to help the patients and expand this area of knowledge and practice.

My nursing career put me smack in the middle of dialysis and transplantation (1974-2014), so I know of what I speak. Thankfully, the modern era of dialysis was beginning.

The history of dialysis is enormously interesting. Dialysis machines took up a whole room, kinda like computers did. The first treatments of record occurred in Holland during the Nazi occupation, under covert conditions (by the good guys, not the Nazis). Very primitive machinery, limited successes. Like other inventions that ultimately proved successful.

We are now in modern times. EVERY person with kidney failure is elgible for dialysis, even if they haven't got a penny. EVERY dialysis facility is REQUIRED to educate EVERY patient about kidney transplantation, and give the patient opportunity to opt in or out for an evaluation for a transplant. If the patient wants to be evaluated, it is REQUIRED that the center refer him to a transplant surgeon (in some cases a transplant nephrologist) for evaluation.

The transplant medical experts make decisions about the patient's medical condition and whether or not they recommend transplant, based on what they believe is in the patient's best interest, as in all decisions regarding medical intervention.

It is all very complex, if anyone wants to ask a question or challenge me.

But I need to go and do some house cleaning. But, please, ask me anything about it.

Can you tell I am passionate about this topic? Retired, but still passionate.


Thanks for all that info Candy, a lot of stuff I didn't know especially the history. I suppose I should not bitch so much about being on dialysis, I couldn't imagine having to do 8 hour sessions and so much time in between. I started home hemo back in Feb. and while a little bit of a pain it beats the hell out of having to go the clinic and on a schedule. The major advantage of doing dialysis at home is I'm at least on my own schedule and I can travel with it as well. We just got back from Tahoe and what seemed like a HUGE pain to transport the machine and supplies in the in retrospect it wasn't the bad. I didn't have to travel to Reno or Carson city for treatments, that was great.
I was on PD for about a year and half and absolutely loved that, hooked up at night, slept, unhook in the morning, easy peasy. But then I got Peritonitis not once but twice right in row. That was a whole summer of pain, pretty bad sometimes.
How the transplant list, at least for my "region", is you are declared eligible and recommende to a board. At that point your name gets put into a pool, not really a list, you're not "next in line" for a kidney. While time on the list does matter, the main factor is "best match". I don't know all the specifics but tissue type is the main factor I believe. There's like six different things they look at and I think at least four of them have to match. While I've accrued all the time since 2010, I've been on and off the active list since(some different problems here and there).

If anybody wants to REALLY save any money look at the amount of illegal immigrants in the dialysis clinics. I've been to clinics across the country and there's always, always about half immigrants in them. My clinic is about half illegals and by law, shouldn't even be here. Monthly costs vary, I have no idea why, but sometimes we'll get a bill for 80 K and some are only a 3-4 K. If someone is epogen(which I am on and off) a little teeny vial of it is 20K. The contents of our fridge at times is worth a cheap college education, pretty crazy.

Yea, it's extremely cheaper in the long run for someone to get a transplant than to keep them on dialysis forever. A transplant cost in the neighborhood of 150K, it only takes a coupla years to recoup that cost, anyone who says different is just completely ignorant of what's going on.

Quote

Originally posted by: jatki99
I've been to clinics across the country and there's always, always about half immigrants in them.
I take it jatki99 thinks he has a magic twig that helps him figure out what country people in dialysis clinics were born in.



Bottomless idiocy.

Quote

Originally posted by: esteskefauver<br]

We just don't know how lucky we are to have you remind us of threads that nobody gives a shit about anymore. You are such a loser!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above comes from one of the usual suspect A=holes on the FFA !

What's on your AM radio schedule tonight Estesticlefauver ???

For your efforts at slinging mud at another FFA poster....I award you 2

Scott Walker and the Republicans in Wisconsin care so much about keeping medical costs down, that they just repealedl their state's Medicaid whistle blower law, that helps root out corruption and has saved the state millions.

GOP! GOP! GOP!

Quote

Originally posted by: Chilcoot
Quote

Originally posted by: jatki99
I've been to clinics across the country and there's always, always about half immigrants in them.
I take it jatki99 thinks he has a magic twig that helps him figure out what country people in dialysis clinics were born in. Bottomless idiocy.


Chil, Jatki is correct. It is well documented that dialysis centers have illegal immigrants in their patient population, no pay source, no reimbursement for dialysis costs. Some speak little to no English. It doesn't take a lot of observation or listening to know that a person is not born in the USA. Whether someone in your dialysis unit is illegal, you would eventually know, whether you wanted to or not.
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