bob Dancer's new column, new question

So, you're pretty much claiming you didn't say what you said or it didn't mean what it meant. That's much clearer now.

BTW, the only reason I poke fun at you is because you make such silly arguments. Maybe if you thought a little longer before posting complete nonsense you'd be treated with more respect.

If you want to claim you are "not stupid" it would help if you quit making stupid statements.

Not all machines have an edge for the player. They are few and far between. In addition, one has to have skill to gain that edge. It doesn't happen by blindly pushing buttons. Finally, the vast majority of machines where the player can skillfully gain an edge are for such low denominations that it will have little impact on a casinos bottom line.

However, there are opportunities that show up from time to time where a player does have a large edge. If you read Frank Kneeland's discussions of progressive teams you'll find they used to look for edges of 4-6% or higher. These things still exist here and there for those willing to scout around.

It might help to think about sports betting. Money can be made by those who spend a lot of time and effort. The vast majority of people cannot make money because they don't put in the time or have the skill. So, the casino is putting up a beatable game and yet makes money over the long haul. VP is quite similar.

Casinos still make money on beatable VP games for exactly the same reason. Most people don't put in the time and effort needed to develop the necessary skills.

Because advantage play isn't a (passive) investment, it's work. Hard, time-devouring work that take self-discipline, money management, and intelligence far beyond most people's ability.

I'm not talking about the average Joe Blow here, I'm talking about the 6 figure guys on Wall Street. I think we can both agree those folks know more about investing than we do.

From my perspective (and nobody's gotten around to refuting what I've said), the question of why more people aren't advantage players is truly one of the great sociological questions. Is it our culture? Is it, specifically, our math background? Is it something about the act of playing vp itself? I think this would make for a more interesting thread, so let's start one -- really, it's hard work and all that, and it takes patience, but it really isn't rocket science, as arcimedes has elegantly pointed out on many occasions. Our culture has plenty of coupon-clipping, auction-trolling get-an-edge freaks, but not many vp winners.

Video poker seems to be primarily an American hobby -- or at least we have the highest percentage of casino floor space devoted to it. So why aren't there more advantage players?

Most Wall St types can sit in their offices and apply their knowledge. For VP you have to get up off your behind and do some real foot work. Besides, were not talking millionaires here. Remember the bankroll was only $80K. Even doubling that every year would not interest most high end investors.

And, it doesn't scale up. The casinos have very few games higher than dollar VP, so they keep a close eye on those. Not much going on except an occasional mistake or high progressive.

While math skills are certainly part of the problem, I think another part is interest. Most people have real jobs and look at VP as entertainment. They go to casinos to party, not to make a profit.

Too much hard and boring work.

I enjoy playing a couple of hours of VP here and there. I can't imagine it as a day job. I'd have to give up the beer I drink while playing to make sure I keep my accuracy up, and where's the fun in that? No, to me it would be too much like having an assembly line job in a factory when you do the same thing over and over again for hours.

If someone offered you an boring repetitive job that pays $15 an hour but you have to invest $50,000 up front, and you get paid once every six months, how many would jump at it?

And to the original question in the thread, the $10K bankroll is better because it belongs to a winner. As Newton's first law of motion would suggest, the winner will keep winning and the looser will keep loosing.

Well, I don't think you're going to like what I'm about to say. So here goes.....

It seems like some of the people who have alot of knowledge about VP on this forum, come off like they are GODs gift to the gaming world. This has the effect of putting folks off when it comes to learning how to play.

A several $billion example are the folks in the LINUX community. Its a computer operating system that is far better than Windows. However, due to the fact that quite a few of the programmers believe that the users are stupid, they are not seeing widespread use of their operating system. Since the people in the business community and computer users see this attitude, a potential multi-billion dollar gold mine lies buried in the ground waiting to be used.

That's the way some people here come off, like they are the best thing since sliced bread because they know the innards of how to play VP. Joe 6-pack just wants to know how to play the game and to have fun doing it. Playing VP, at least JOB is very easy. You can learn the basics in a few hours. Learning about how to handle and manage a bankroll takes quite a bit more time to figure out, but again its not too hard to learn.

When trying to teach someone how to play a game, they could care less about the freaking math, odds, or pretty much anything else except what buttons to push when. If you write a book based upon that one theme, you could make a boatload of money. Why do you think more people play BJ or craps than VP? Its pretty much stupid proof. However since some VP folks treat non-players like they are stupid, they end up driving away a potential source of new players.

I didnt read the article, but how I see the bankroll amounts...


Just a dollar amount in a bankroll does not mean much.

If the 10K bankroll is for $1 VP, thats 10,000 credits.
If the 10K bankroll is for $2 VP, thats 5,000 credits.
If the 10K bankroll is for $5 VP, thats 2,000 credits.
If the 10K bankroll is for $10 VP, thats 1,000 credits.
If the 10K bankroll is for $25 VP, thats 400 credits.
If the 10K bankroll is for $100 VP, thats 100 credits.

Now the 80K roll...

If the 80K bankroll is for $5 VP, thats 16,000 credits.
If the 80K bankroll is for $10 VP, thats 8,000 credits.
If the 80K bankroll is for $25 VP, thats 3,200 credits.
If the 80K bankroll is for $100 VP, thats 800 credits.


IMHO, the 10K roll at a $2 level is in the best position to get the best ROI with a lot of play.

with the 80K roll, the best is the $10 or $25 level. The $10 is more ideal for the 80K roll, since you can get more play with the greater amount of credits, the $25 level at 80K is leaving you with not as much of a bankroll with less chances to hit the big win.