Vegas Free-for-All - Bob Dancer's new progressive games at the M

Bob Dancer's new progressive games at the M

MoneyLA

Jun 3, 2011
1:06pm

Well, I'll go with the dateline on the story and trust that the picture was taken at the same time. However, like you I would like to see updates on what the progressive totals are. Earlier in this thread we discussed that. I think it would be smart "PR" for the M to put these progressive totals on their website since it appears this is their big new promotion and they do have Dancer talking about it in his column and I am sure he is talking about it on his radio show too. Thats a lot of good publicity they should milk and having the running total on their website makes sense. I hope they do that.

I also think that the signage can also be called misleading because it depends on a progressive reaching a certain amount. On the other hand there are games where the long term payback is indeed over 100% and these games do not rely on a progressive that builds over time. Arc, you would know these games better than I. Is the OEJ game you play a positive game without a progressive? Isnt 10/7 DB a positive game without a progressive?

arcimedes

Jun 3, 2011
9:13pm

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
I also think that the signage can also be called misleading because it depends on a progressive reaching a certain amount. On the other hand there are games where the long term payback is indeed over 100% and these games do not rely on a progressive that builds over time. Arc, you would know these games better than I. Is the OEJ game you play a positive game without a progressive? Isnt 10/7 DB a positive game without a progressive?

Yes, signage can be misleading. But, it is not illeagal.

My OEJs (100.28) and 10/7 DB (100.17) are both positive games with no progressive. At the Grand casinos they do have progressives on a few of the OEJs, however, the meters are as slow as it gets.

alanleroy

Jun 3, 2011
11:53pm

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: arcimedes
However, the sign say "up to" 102.5% so it does not state the games are "positive game BEFORE they actually turn positive".

Since there is no limit to how high the progressive can go, there should be no upward limit to an individual game's return at a given point in time.

In the long run, the total player return with perfect play must = house edge + the jackpot contribution. Otherwise money is disappearing into thin air. Not you Money.

arcimedes

Jun 4, 2011
12:06am

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: alanleroy

Quote
Originally posted by: arcimedes
However, the sign say "up to" 102.5% so it does not state the games are "positive game BEFORE they actually turn positive".

Do you know this for a fact? I thought I read somewhere that progressives can have upper limits. I don't know if this is the case here.

alanleroy

Jun 4, 2011
12:17am

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: arcimedes

Quote
Originally posted by: alanleroy
Quote
Originally posted by: arcimedes
However, the sign say "up to" 102.5% so it does not state the games are "positive game BEFORE they actually turn positive".

Since there is no limit to how high the progressive can go, there should be no upward limit to an individual game's return at a given point in time.

In the long run, the total player return with perfect play must = house edge + the jackpot contribution. Otherwise money is disappearing into thin air. Not you Money.

Do you know this for a fact? I thought I read somewhere that progressives can have upper limits. I don't know if this is the case here.

No, I do not know that for a fact. Maybe they are limited. I've seen slot machines that have hit a progressive limits and never move. Wouldn't that be a pretty important thing to know here....especially if they can change (lower) the progressive limit on a whim. That could change a + to a -.

arcimedes

Jun 4, 2011
12:41am

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: alanleroy

Quote
Originally posted by: arcimedes
Quote
Originally posted by: alanleroy
Quote
Originally posted by: arcimedes
However, the sign say "up to" 102.5% so it does not state the games are "positive game BEFORE they actually turn positive".

Since there is no limit to how high the progressive can go, there should be no upward limit to an individual game's return at a given point in time.

In the long run, the total player return with perfect play must = house edge + the jackpot contribution. Otherwise money is disappearing into thin air. Not you Money.

Do you know this for a fact? I thought I read somewhere that progressives can have upper limits. I don't know if this is the case here.

They can't take money out of a progressive unless they shut down the game and move the money somewhere else.

A limit wouldn't be important to a good APer. They would only play at some predetermined positive return. If the return maxed out anywhere above this value, the game is still positive and playable. If it stopped reaching that level because the limit was changed, they just wouldn't play anymore.

It wouldn't be ideal to see any limit as the APers would love to see their advantage continue to rise.

Having a limit would increase the casino's return because at that point they would no longer be putting 4% into the progressives and that money goes into their profits instead.

alanleroy

Jun 4, 2011
12:56am

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: arcimedes
They can't take money out of a progressive unless they shut down the game and move the money somewhere else..

They wouldn't have to 'take money out' of a progressive to seriously change the potential of the game. Just set a limit below a 100% return before the progressive gets there.

Quote
Originally posted by: arcimedes

A limit wouldn't be important to a good APer. They would only play at some predetermined positive return. If the return maxed out anywhere above this value, the game is still positive and playable. If it stopped reaching that level because the limit was changed, they just wouldn't play anymore.

It wouldn't be ideal to see any limit as the APers would love to see their advantage continue to rise.

Well that's true...but we were talking about the "Up To %" and the overall return to player or casino...not whether or not it's important to a good APer.

Quote
Originally posted by: arcimedes

Having a limit would increase the casino's return because at that point they would no longer be putting 4% into the progressives and that money goes into their profits instead.

That's what I'm talking about. They could also change the % contribution. I wonder how often they're going to tinker with the various items under their control: Paytables, Jackpot contribution %, and perhaps Jackpot Limits.

MoneyLA

Jun 4, 2011
1:49am

Block User

Ive never heard of a limit on a progressive, and I am going to guess that in Nevada a "limit" would violate the gaming rules. the classic case is the Progressive Lions Machine t MGM. MGM has been trying to end this progressive for several years now and on the one machine left the jackpot is more than 2-million. (Anyone have the current jackpot?) Caesars has that red-white-blue machine at about a half million -- alse the last of a progressive bank and with each play the Caesars machine and the MGM machine both add to the jackpots. Keep in mind that the progressive money belongs to the players and must be returned to the players. But youre right, they could END the contributions tothe jackpot -- but they must distribute the jackpot.

The NGC allows progressives that are not hit to have the jackpot money distributed to other machines and other jackpots. That is in the rules. Obviously if a casino did that, the contributions to that jackpot would end.

Theoretically, if the M wanted to end these progressives early they could take the existing progressive jackpots and add them to other royals in the casino or even to other slot machines. That would meet he NGC rules.

BAGIANT

Jun 4, 2011
4:16am

Block User

At the Silverton, on the progressive $1 machines that I play, there is a sign that says the progressive limit is $10,000. If it didn't get hit when it did at $8100, it probably would have reached that point in two days.

MoneyLA

Jun 4, 2011
8:32am

Block User

Bagiant what happens to the game IF the progressive is hit? For example, does the paytable become more favorable?

I think someone should consult the NGC about this "limit" because what the casino is doing is taking "progressive money" away from the jackpot and putting it into their own pockets. I dont think that is legal. On the other hand, if the rules are so stated up front for all to see, then perhaps it is legal??

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