Hello LVA

It's not like Singer's system is so horrible that no one can win with it.

I agree. As a recreational player I see some appealing aspects to his system.

Like Money says, some of the special plays are like placing a hardway bet at craps or a bonus bets at some of the table games. It's a long shot. It is not a smart long term move, but if you're a tourist in Vegas for the weekend, it is fun to make some long shot bets. You may get lucky, and even if you lose you may get a good story out of it.

Singer's approach of cashing out and starting over once you're up a certain amount is the system I use when playing VP. It does not affect your odds or long term results. But again, as a recreational player, it makes sure I walk away with something in my pocket when I take a break to go sit by the pool.

Increasing your bets when you lose in order to recapture loses is an area where I have a problem. I can see where this would work most of the time, but one bad losing streak can be devastating wiping out all previous wins and more. I have a friend who lost $500 trying to win 25 cents using a similar system. This was his first and last trip to Vegas. I do like how Singer applies this progression to a series of bets rather than a single bet like most progression systems.

Frank, let me rephrase my question:

If your team is not guaranteed that you will win the big progressive at these M machines becuause there are also other players who are not part of your team, does it still make sense for your team to play them? Would it make more sense for your team to play other machines with a better basic paytable?

My example is the Bonus game. At the M the basic paytable is 6/5. At other casinos you can find 8/5 Bonus.

So, does it make sense for your team to play the 6/5 Bonus game at the M because there is a royal that with the progressive has a 102% return (but you don't have all of the seats and someone else outside of your team could win) or should your team play an 8/5 bonus with the traditional 4000 coin royal and a 99.2% return where it wouldnt matter if a royal were hit on another machine by someone else as a royal could still be hit on your team machines?

My point is that I would think your team would not want to play such a poor paytable unless you were certain that you would be hitting the progressive because you had all of the seats locked up.

thanks.

A follow-up to Money's question above. If there were:

A $5 per ticket, 20 ticket raffle,

with 19 tickets already sold,

with a prize of $1,000.

Would you buy the last ticket even though you had only a very small (5%) chance to win?

Second question: What is .05 x 1,000/5?

I just realized this is my radio show day and I have prep to do. I'll have to curtail my posting for today.

What you are saying deserves a really good reply from me, and it's one that will take a fair amount of thought on my part to write. This is an extremely hard concept to understand, but I think with a few funny analogies I should be able to explain how I think of it.

Whether or not that will alter how you think of it, I cannot speculate.

Good luck out there. TTFN

I will buy the raffle ticket.

That's true of every single VP game I know about. However, people DO actually hit RFs once in awhile and when they do the fact is it will generally mean they are winners.

Of course, I've already explained this to you many times, yet here you again spouting the same nonsense. Why is that?

Regarding the raffle ticket analogy: is this the strategy of a team? My only experience with a team is at Rincon where a team of four will play the$5 DDB progressive at high levels. Unfortunately for the team they lost the last three big jackpots because they could fill only four of the five progressive seats and as fate would have it a non team member won. Once the royal was for $70K another time $50k and I got it for $37k. Frank just posted that the M has added ten more seats. That is a lot of potential competition for a team. By the way Rincon has added two more seats for its progressive game.

Sorry, but teaching people a LOSING system is immoral. That's what Singer does and that makes him a con man. Just because you can't figure it out for yourself doesn't mean many others haven't. Let's see, how many pros and APers in LV play the Singer method .... hmmmm .... Zero. How many use optimal play? 100s.

Oh wait, they must all be wrong .... LMAO.

Arc this is about the strategy for a team. It does not challenge your math.