Hello LVA

Frank you stated the subject of Singer was akin to a grenade, try a 50 megaton hydrogen bomb.

I have heard the part of going up in denomination, which I see as throwing even worse money after bad money. Arci has stated many times that in time the math shows your going to win with optimal play. However there are those of us that don't have a $10k or $50k bankroll to deal with those long loosing streaks.

Just a few questions:

What kinda of realistic bankroll does one need to play VP?
What kinda denomination of VP machine should one be playing at having the bankroll in the previous question?
Should a VP player have a stop loss point at which they stop playing for a session?
If I plant a peanut from a can a peanuts, will it grow up to be Jimmy Carter?
Quote

Originally posted by: chefantwon

1. What kinda of realistic bankroll does one need to play VP?
2. What kinda denomination of VP machine should one be playing at having the bankroll in the previous question?
3. Should a VP player have a stop loss point at which they stop playing for a session?
4. If I plant a peanut from a can a peanuts, will it grow up to be Jimmy Carter?


My experience is in progressives. I have always recommended about the same amounts which render about a 1 in 1000 chance of going bust if you ran really bad.

Answer to Q 1&2
Quarters BR = $20,000
Dollar BR = $100,000

The dollar BR requirement is slightly higher because we generally play dollars at lower percentage edges.

Answer to 3: I do not believe in session or daily loss limits. If the progressive is up play. If it is down, stop playing. If you have a good edge play as much as you can without hurting your health. If you do not have an edge get a different hobby.

Answer to 4: Yes but you must water it with Billy Beer.



Quote

Originally posted by: arcimedes
Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Frank, I have done several video taped interviews with Rob, includng videos with him explaining his "special plays" and his belief that video poker machines may not be random.

From the interviews, it is easy to see that Singer does not challenge the accepted math of the game, and in fact follows the math of the game. However, is some cases (he says 5% or fewer of the hands played) he will violate what is considered to be "accepted strategy" or what he calls the "optimal hand" to take a long shot.

He is not claiming that 2+2=5.

Then could you please explain why he has explicitly stated no one can win playing by the math yet they can win using his system? That is essentially stating that 98 > 100. Slightly different than 2+2=5 but basically the same.

RESPONSE: How is it, Arc, that you can make this assumption? He has never said to me that no one can win playing by the math. When did he say this? Please give me the source. He told me he doesnt want to play in casinos for hours on end, that he doesnt want to play the grind, that he has a win goal ($2,500) and when he reaches it he leaves.

Instead of believing whatever nonsense he fed you in the interviews, you should read what he has actually stated in the past. Many places to look ... but then that would take some actual work on your part. Somehow I doubt you're up for it.

RESPONSE: I dont care what was said in the past and who quoted it. I asked the questions that I believed to be relevant and important. He answered my questions and I presented his answers. My suggestion to you Arc: create your own website, interview Singer, even video tape the interview, and put it online. I'm sure you have different questions from those I asked.

Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
He does not advocate that players play on machines with lesser paytables, but he makes suggestions for changing traditional strategy when you are on a lesser paytable for certain hands.

Pure BS. Singer has stated many times that a few extra coins for the FH and flush make no difference. I guess he lied to you when he claimed otherwise. What a surprise.

RESPONSE: I agree with you that a few extra coins make a difference. On my last trip to Caesars I estimate that I lost about $500 playing 7/5 bonus instead of 8/5 bonus at Rincon. Singer told me he always preferred the full pay games. ALL of the examples on my video are with FULL PAY games.

Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
There is a side issue -- and that is the personal problems among Singer and others. You are correct Frank, that the personal problems should not get in the way of an objective look at the different kind of betting strategy that Singer sometimes uses.
There is also criticism of his "progressive betting style" but even Singer doesnt use it when he doesnt have to. He frequently uses a "regressive betting style" to conserve and bank the money he's won. There has been too much criticism of his "progressive bets" and his regressive betting style has been totally overlooked by his critics.



Bwah hahahahahahahahaha

Money, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Please explain his "regressive" betting style.

Are you referring to the standard way progressive systems ALL work where you return (regress) to a previous level when losses are recaptured? Sorry Money, that is not a regressive style. That is how progressive systems work, it is inherent in the system.

You did give me a good laugh, however.

"regressive betting style" ... wow, that's funny.


RESPONSE: His regressive betting style, as Singer described it to me, is that after he reaches a certain win point, he will move to a lower denomination game to lock up some of his profit. Do you have a different name for it? Im curious if you do, because in craps we call lowering your bet amount a "regression" or a regressive betting. For example, with $120 on the place 8, it hits paying $150.... a player might regress to $60 on the place eight or $90 on the place eight.

Please respond, Arc.

Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Quote

Originally posted by: arcimedes
Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Frank, I have done several video taped interviews with Rob, includng videos with him explaining his "special plays" and his belief that video poker machines may not be random.

From the interviews, it is easy to see that Singer does not challenge the accepted math of the game, and in fact follows the math of the game. However, is some cases (he says 5% or fewer of the hands played) he will violate what is considered to be "accepted strategy" or what he calls the "optimal hand" to take a long shot.

He is not claiming that 2+2=5.

Then could you please explain why he has explicitly stated no one can win playing by the math yet they can win using his system? That is essentially stating that 98 > 100. Slightly different than 2+2=5 but basically the same.

RESPONSE: How is it, Arc, that you can make this assumption? He has never said to me that no one can win playing by the math. When did he say this? Please give me the source. He told me he doesnt want to play in casinos for hours on end, that he doesnt want to play the grind, that he has a win goal ($2,500) and when he reaches it he leaves.

Instead of believing whatever nonsense he fed you in the interviews, you should read what he has actually stated in the past. Many places to look ... but then that would take some actual work on your part. Somehow I doubt you're up for it.

RESPONSE: I dont care what was said in the past and who quoted it. I asked the questions that I believed to be relevant and important. He answered my questions and I presented his answers. My suggestion to you Arc: create your own website, interview Singer, even video tape the interview, and put it online. I'm sure you have different questions from those I asked.

Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
He does not advocate that players play on machines with lesser paytables, but he makes suggestions for changing traditional strategy when you are on a lesser paytable for certain hands.

Pure BS. Singer has stated many times that a few extra coins for the FH and flush make no difference. I guess he lied to you when he claimed otherwise. What a surprise.

RESPONSE: I agree with you that a few extra coins make a difference. On my last trip to Caesars I estimate that I lost about $500 playing 7/5 bonus instead of 8/5 bonus at Rincon. Singer told me he always preferred the full pay games. ALL of the examples on my video are with FULL PAY games.

Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
There is a side issue -- and that is the personal problems among Singer and others. You are correct Frank, that the personal problems should not get in the way of an objective look at the different kind of betting strategy that Singer sometimes uses.
There is also criticism of his "progressive betting style" but even Singer doesnt use it when he doesnt have to. He frequently uses a "regressive betting style" to conserve and bank the money he's won. There has been too much criticism of his "progressive bets" and his regressive betting style has been totally overlooked by his critics.



Bwah hahahahahahahahaha

Money, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Please explain his "regressive" betting style.

Are you referring to the standard way progressive systems ALL work where you return (regress) to a previous level when losses are recaptured? Sorry Money, that is not a regressive style. That is how progressive systems work, it is inherent in the system.

You did give me a good laugh, however.

"regressive betting style" ... wow, that's funny.


RESPONSE: His regressive betting style, as Singer described it to me, is that after he reaches a certain win point, he will move to a lower denomination game to lock up some of his profit. Do you have a different name for it? Im curious if you do, because in craps we call lowering your bet amount a "regression" or a regressive betting. For example, with $120 on the place 8, it hits paying $150.... a player might regress to $60 on the place eight or $90 on the place eight.

Please respond, Arc.


Oh Hogwash Money!!!

No one playing craps tells the dealer to "regress to $60" or calls it a "regression". Maybe that's your term for it. I'd love to hear someone at a loaded craps table say "regress my 8" LMFAO. REAL craps players say "take my 8 down to $60". Craps players use the terms "take it down" or "press it" when they're dictating to the dealers what to do with their wagers. Oh Mr Dealer, "Please regress my 6 to $60." HAHAHAHA!!!

Stop taking what everyone says out of context to strengthen your position to make it sound like you know what the heck you're talking about! YOU DON'T. And if you did, you wouldn't be wasting your time with Singer.


-Mule


Mule, of course no one calls it a regression at the craps table. How silly you are. But this just illustrates the desperate attempts you and others are making to find fault with EVERYTHING connected with Singer.

Ya know Mule, had I not "wasted" my time with Singer NO ONE would know what his "special plays" were.

In this case, don't kill the messenger. Some of you are still missing the point that I set out to find out what Singer's strategy is all about.

If you disagree with it (as I disagree with lots of it, but find some parts beneficial) argue with Singer. If you can't discuss it with him here (because he is banned) find another venue.

Perhaps you'd like to meet in Vegas and talk about it? Or Laughlin?

I have an idea, why don't you let Singer play 30,000 hands of video poker and see just how far apart you guys are? Perhaps you'd like to put some money up as a bet?

I did my job. Enough of this foolishness. I'll say it again: I did my job. Now your argument is with Singer. It's not with me.
Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Mule, of course no one calls it a regression at the craps table. How silly you are. But this just illustrates the desperate attempts you and others are making to find fault with EVERYTHING connected with Singer.


Alan, we have a term for folks like you at Videopoker.com. We call you reflections. Because when you look in the mirror you see Rob Singer. You're not even your own person anymore. That's what you've become, a REFLECTION!!!


-Mule

damule, for more than 40 years Ive been a reporter. Even now that I have moved into advertising and marketing (and yes, I do work for some casinos) I am still a reporter.
Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Mule, of course no one calls it a regression at the craps table. How silly you are. But this just illustrates the desperate attempts you and others are making to find fault with EVERYTHING connected with Singer.

Ya know Mule, had I not "wasted" my time with Singer NO ONE would know what his "special plays" were.

In this case, don't kill the messenger. Some of you are still missing the point that I set out to find out what Singer's strategy is all about.

If you disagree with it (as I disagree with lots of it, but find some parts beneficial) argue with Singer. If you can't discuss it with him here (because he is banned) find another venue.

Perhaps you'd like to meet in Vegas and talk about it? Or Laughlin?

I have an idea, why don't you let Singer play 30,000 hands of video poker and see just how far apart you guys are? Perhaps you'd like to put some money up as a bet?

I did my job. Enough of this foolishness. I'll say it again: I did my job. Now your argument is with Singer. It's not with me.


Wait, let me use a Singerism for this one. I'm retired playing professionally.


-Mule

Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA

Mule, of course no one calls it a regression at the craps table.

I think I will start calling it that...."Regress My Bets One Unit!". It's got a nice ring to it...Also instead of "Pressing" my craps bets I'm going to start telling the man to "Progress" my bets. Once again, Money is at the forefront of a trend.

Quote

Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
Quote

Originally posted by: chefantwon

1. What kinda of realistic bankroll does one need to play VP?
2. What kinda denomination of VP machine should one be playing at having the bankroll in the previous question?
3. Should a VP player have a stop loss point at which they stop playing for a session?
4. If I plant a peanut from a can a peanuts, will it grow up to be Jimmy Carter?


My experience is in progressives. I have always recommended about the same amounts which render about a 1 in 1000 chance of going bust if you ran really bad.

Answer to Q 1&2
Quarters BR = $20,000
Dollar BR = $100,000

The dollar BR requirement is slightly higher because we generally play dollars at lower percentage edges.

Answer to 3: I do not believe in session or daily loss limits. If the progressive is up play. If it is down, stop playing. If you have a good edge play as much as you can without hurting your health. If you do not have an edge get a different hobby.

Answer to 4: Yes but you must water it with Billy Bear.
Damn oenophiles don't know how to spell "beer."

BTW Frank, your progressive VP book is very good. And you must have used spellcheck.
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