I just read Bob Dancer's Jan 25th column

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Originally posted by: justmare
I don't understand how anyone could play with pooled money. Who takes the responsibility for tax liability?

I've taken a lot of heat in the past for not being a "math" person and for playing less than great games. You're either lucky or you're not.

I think both Dancer and Singer have plenty of flaws and nobody should "follow" either one of them.



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Originally posted by: forkush
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Originally posted by: MoneyLA
"Their battle cry is always the same BS: Winning or losing doesn't matter if it was a "good play". So he had a supposed 1.6% advantage, and he lost $80,000 in the process? Really, how sick is that?"...
I don't know. Why don't you ask the folks that run Las Vegas casinos. Because they have statistical advantages against the players all the time, yet on occasion the players win....


That's why Joints like the M put on Contests like the Rover 'Giveaway'....so an advantage player like Dancer can swoop in and put the house at a disadvantage.

Or maybe they figured they could rope a few more high rollers into the mix. Doesn't it turn negative for everyone except the house based solely on TOTAL increased coin-in?

I wonder what they paid for the Rover. I wonder what Dancer actually sells it for. I wonder if they just wrote it off to advertising. Maybe they had done some analysis to determine their potential increased take based on their probable increased coin-in. I wonder if they had Dancer, Joyce and a couple of others right in the cross-hairs when they started planning this little 'giveaway'....(Holy crap a violent metaphor)

Based on the M's actual results from this Contest, I imagine they will do another. It will be interesting to see if Dancer 'decides to win' that one too...He could become a fixture in the Vegas Used Land Rover market.

Of course there's always the chance that his write up of this event will scare off others from participating in such future contests based on his huge loss. Then again, maybe others like forkie and RoadTrip will take a look at the math and the 1.6% player advantage and hop on the contest bandwagon...oh wait a minute...that changes everything.
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Originally posted by: DonDiego



DD, I totally agree.


And why, did he ignore his own advice about chasing comps???????????????

Once again the losers come out of the woodwork and claim that it doesn't matter whether a person has the advantage. They should NEVER gamble because they might lose. If all people followed that same logic no one would invest in the stock market. No one would take a risk EVER.

What complete and total nonsense. Of course, I already knew this is what Singer what say. It's the same nonsense he's always said. In fact, you can almost guarantee anyone who says you should never invest in anything where's risk is involved has no clue how to win.

Now, time to go update the RF list.
I just want to point out a couple of details -- if I were playing against Dancer, and he "staked out" the high-limit pit with his cronies to monitor if/when I were playing, I would report them to security. Dancer would then have to, at the least, pay for them to play somewhere in my vicinity. Because if they're not playing, and I'm a "concerned high roller" worried about some goons scoping me out, odds are management will see things my way and boot them. This alone might, I say might, make this a negative proposition.


Second, I would get a room at the M, and have them tote my fave machine into the room. This is done at other casinos -- why not at M? Then Dancer could try to figure out if I was playing, watching porn, or taking a bubble bath 24/7.

These are obvious off-the-top-of-my-head strategies that would render Dancer's alleged savviness almost useless in this case. That's why I said his risk assessment was flawed. And there are other strategies -- C'mon, guys, anyone competing for serious cash is not going to Marquis of Queensbury it. Dancer was vulnerable a half dozen ways.

Arc, why do YOU twist things around. Here's what you wrote:

"Once again the losers come out of the woodwork and claim that it doesn't matter whether a person has the advantage."

the issue, my dear friend Arc, is not the so called advantage you might have, or what Dancer thought he had -- THE ISSUE IS THAT HE LOST SO MUCH MONEY.

Your nemesis Singer is spot on with his criticism. Yeah, you might play a game with an advantage, but if you lose you still lost.

This really gnaws at the holy graile of advantage play which separates actual results from the theo. Sure, certain conditions might give you a "theo advantage" but Im from Missouri, so "show me" what you won, and don't tell me what you should win.

Dancer went into this event armed with his "theo" of paytables and cash back and promos, and value of the car... and LOST a lot of money. So much for your theo... unless you consider this negative result a positive???
justmare raised a good question about tax liability when there is a win for a pool.

answer: pools win all the time and there are procedures for awarding the money to a pool, and establishing tax liability for a pool.

about ten years ago, my office pool hit five out of six numbers in the Calif lottery. It was a payoff of about 5-thousand, but there were so many of us in the "pool" that we each got less than a hundred bucks.

our "pool" manager got a W2G with her name on it indicating that she was the manager of the pool. Then, when each of us got our cash (she had it in an envelope) we each had to sign a master form indicating that we were part of the pool and acknowledged our share of the winning amount.

I dont know how these particular Vegas pools operate, but if they are playing for big money, they easily could set up a partnership and allocate wins and losses accordingly.
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Of course there's always the chance that his write up of this event will scare off others from participating in such future contests based on his huge loss. Then again, maybe others like forkie and RoadTrip will take a look at the math and the 1.6% player advantage and hop on the contest bandwagon...oh wait a minute...that changes everything.


You're a real piece of work.

I said that I understood his taking the risk, and that I do believe his strategy, and logic was sound, and that his analysis was reasonable, based only on his testimony, the information he presented in his articles.

Along come others with information not presented as "evidence", speculative conclusions and "facts" based on fantasy scenarios, to prove that his choice was not a good one.

I could not sit on a jury and judge someone based on anything but the evidence presented in the trial and properly admitted as evidence.

The only witnesses, thus the only FACTS that should be considered are the column's he wrote pertaining to this contest. That is the only information I had to base my opinions on.

And that is what I did.

You may not agree. Perhaps I would also say negative or derogatory things about this contest and his play if I had the opportunity to question him, gather missing information, speak to the "M", and more.

But based only on the information from the columns he penned, and giving the benefit of reasonable doubt, I am forced to accept his statements whether or not they may be truthful or accurate.

There is no "evidence" to repudiate his testimony. (columns)

ONLY the fictitious characters and scenarios created for that purpose by others.

As for my jumping on the bandwagon of a similar promotion, I am not that type of an advantage player. It would not meet my personal Risk vs Reward requirements for my liking.

Yet I would not chastise someone else for making the play if their analysis were reasonably correct, as his appears to be based on the information presented to us in his articles.

I believe that after he made his decision and began play, that his strategy and decision process was good. He won the contest. He only played for as long as he "had" to play. He did what he had to do to win the trophy.

The fact that he lost $80K along the way was always a possibility. His advantage was small, his risk of ruin high, and the deviation and volatility of those games cost him quite a bit of money. The loss was unfortunate and part of the cost of doing business, of trying to "be the casino" for the short term that this promotion ran.

He could have lost much more, or perhaps gotten a little luckier and hit a jackpot to turn a profit late in the contest. Again, so what.

He made a choice. I can not and will not find fault in his participation after that choice to participate was made. He met one of his goals. He won the car. But his other goal, only losing $1380 along the way to winning the car was not met. Not even close. :::shrug:::

But he had no control over his losses. He believed the contest was worth his participation and went for it.

And so I will not find fault in that.

Someone can always come along and find fault by altering the facts presented. I choose to base my opinion on facts presented, not conjecture.









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Originally posted by: RoadTrip
You're a real piece of work.

I said that I understood his taking the risk, and that I do believe his strategy, and logic was sound, and that his analysis was reasonable, based only on his testimony, the information he presented in his articles.

Along come others with information not presented as "evidence", speculative conclusions and "facts" based on fantasy scenarios, to prove that his choice was not a good one.

I could not sit on a jury and judge someone based on anything but the evidence presented in the trial and properly admitted as evidence.

The only witnesses, thus the only FACTS that should be considered are the column's he wrote pertaining to this contest. That is the only information I had to base my opinions on.

And that is what I did.

You may not agree. Perhaps I would also say negative or derogatory things about this contest and his play if I had the opportunity to question him, gather missing information, speak to the "M", and more.

But based only on the information from the columns he penned, and giving the benefit of reasonable doubt, I am forced to accept his statements whether or not they may be truthful or accurate.

There is no "evidence" to repudiate his testimony. (columns)

ONLY the fictitious characters and scenarios created for that purpose by others.

As for my jumping on the bandwagon of a similar promotion, I am not that type of an advantage player. It would not meet my personal Risk vs Reward requirements for my liking.

Yet I would not chastise someone else for making the play if their analysis were reasonably correct, as his appears to be based on the information presented to us in his articles.

I believe that after he made his decision and began play, that his strategy and decision process was good. He won the contest. He only played for as long as he "had" to play. He did what he had to do to win the trophy.

The fact that he lost $80K along the way was always a possibility. His advantage was small, his risk of ruin high, and the deviation and volatility of those games cost him quite a bit of money. The loss was unfortunate and part of the cost of doing business, of trying to "be the casino" for the short term that this promotion ran.

He could have lost much more, or perhaps gotten a little luckier and hit a jackpot to turn a profit late in the contest. Again, so what.

He made a choice. I can not and will not find fault in his participation after that choice to participate was made. He met one of his goals. He won the car. But his other goal, only losing $1380 along the way to winning the car was not met. Not even close. :::shrug:::

But he had no control over his losses. He believed the contest was worth his participation and went for it.

And so I will not find fault in that.

Someone can always come along and find fault by altering the facts presented. I choose to base my opinion on facts presented, not conjecture.



I'm a 'piece of work'...how? What facts have I altered? YOU said earlier that he probaby based his play on his 'FEELING' that he would win the contest. What was that FEELING based on? NOT MATH. Since there are VERY FEW of these events, it can't be based on an kind of mathmatical study...the sample is WAY too small. No...it's based SOLELY ON HIS GUT FEELING. That's where his analysis jumps the shark. That's where this goes from math to voodoo. I know what kind of player you are. You're not the kind that hits a 17 because your gut tells you the next card's a 4....even if you've witnessed that happening 3 times in a row. Why can't you see his guess about the lack of other participants puts this play outside the math?
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