Journey to the Undiscovered Country

Journey to the Undiscovered Country

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. ~Ecclesiastes 9:11

In oder for anything I'm about to say to make sense we have to agree on one very important point: The future is unknown and unknowable. It's fine to think that your actions today will effect what happens tomorrow, indeed that is the whole point of the endeavor. But you have to judge decisions on only the information available at the time the decision was made. Though we'll be getting to gambling examples, let's start out with some real life examples. I'll tell how the decisions panned out later. Please judge in your mind whether or not the following are good or bad decisions.

1.A child decides to run across a busy street without looking both ways.
2.A man decides to marry a women he met yesterday at a strip club.
3.A hiker carrying several bottles of drinking water decides to drink out of a stagnant pool, just to be closer to nature.
4. A young boy with all the right stuff decides he wants to be an astronaut.

Alright, have you got your answers? If you are like most people you've probably answered BAD to 1-3 and GOOD to #4. These were not hypothetical situations, I was in fact talking about real people. Here's the outcomes:

1.The child was me. The busy street was Park Avenue in New York, and thanks to chance I'm still here to write this, though after a scolding from my Mother I never ran into a street again without looking both ways.
2.The man's name was Tom, the gal he married was one of my high-school sweethearts, a girl named Lisa. To my knowledge they have been happy for 12 years now and have two children.
3.The hiker was my old roommate Michael and as far as I know he suffered no ill effects from drinking out of the pool. His life took a turn for the worse soon thereafter in a car accident that cost him his job and good health. It occurred on a dark empty country road at night, due to a tire blowout. Nothing he could have done.
4.The young boy became astronaut Gus Grissom. He was the first man to fly into space more than once, though the second time was his last. He died in that fateful Apollo I mission along with Ed White and Roger Chaffee.

Now, after knowing the outcomes to these real life non-fictional events would you change your answers and:

1.Recommend to your child that they run across roads without looking both ways.
2.Marry exotic dancers you've just met yesterday.
3.Believe that is always safe to drink out of standing water found along a mountain path.
4.Believe that no one should ever become an astronaut, because it's a death sentence.

We can only hope these aren't your conclusions and that knowing the outcomes of those situations wouldn't change your thinking in any way. It's just not a good idea to run across busy streets without looking, and no amount of survivors will ever make it so, or make up for the ones that ended up as roadkill. This is the fundamental premise behind results and outcomes not justifying bad decisions. In gambling it's just a little harder to see.

Gambling Example
Imagine it's seven o'clock. You've just walked into your favorite casino. After looking around for thirty minutes to find the highest return game, you make your choice on what you'll play that day. However, you come over all peckish and decide on a nosh first. While in the coffee shop a friend of yours walks in and says, “hay what cha doin”. You tell him that you are here to play and what game you'll be on after dinner. He then asks, “Is that a good idea?”

How do you answer? (You have not played yet, you have only made your choice as to what you will play later).

Now here's your job: I want you to judge the choice you've made without knowing the outcome. Why? because this is exactly how we HAVE to make decisions everyday in all aspects of life. We never know the outcome prior to making a decision.

If you cannot answer the question, “Is that a good idea?”, without knowing how the decision pans out, then you could have mild to moderate cognitive distortion. It means you aren't judging your decisions prior to making them. You are crossing the road first and then deciding whether or not you should have looked both ways. You have to be able to answer, “Is that a good idea?” before you sit down. And here's the part that's so hard to understand, if it was a good idea, a bad outcome doesn't change anything. When you made the decision, you didn't know what the outcome would be. You made the best choice you could, given the information you had at the time. That is all we can ever do.
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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
After looking around for thirty minutes to find the highest return game, you make your choice on what you'll play that day. However, you come over all peckish and decide on a nosh first. While in the coffee shop a friend of yours walks in and says, “hay what cha doin”. You tell him that you are here to play and what game you'll be on after dinner. He then asks, “Is that a good idea?”


Maybe the friend is asking the question because you chose the game based solely upon return, ignoring that the highest return game at that casino is where you cross the street without looking while onlookers place bets. He knows that although the return is good that the risk is also high. Good decision making requires gathering and considering all information available. Good or bad can not be based upon return alone.
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Originally posted by: KayPea
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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
After looking around for thirty minutes to find the highest return game, you make your choice on what you'll play that day. However, you come over all peckish and decide on a nosh first. While in the coffee shop a friend of yours walks in and says, “hay what cha doin”. You tell him that you are here to play and what game you'll be on after dinner. He then asks, “Is that a good idea?”


Maybe the friend is asking the question because you chose the game based solely upon return, ignoring that the highest return game at that casino is where you cross the street without looking while onlookers place bets. He knows that although the return is good that the risk is also high. Good decision making requires gathering and considering all information available. Good or bad can not be based upon return alone.


It's perfectly fine to include anything you want in the decision making process. If you'd like to include some other factors go ahead. The question remains:

Would you be able to judge the decision GOOD or BAD prior to playing and without knowing the outcome?

And would you second guess yourself after knowing the outcome?


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Originally posted by: KayPea
Quote

Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
After looking around for thirty minutes to find the highest return game, you make your choice on what you'll play that day. However, you come over all peckish and decide on a nosh first. While in the coffee shop a friend of yours walks in and says, “hay what cha doin”. You tell him that you are here to play and what game you'll be on after dinner. He then asks, “Is that a good idea?”


Maybe the friend is asking the question because you chose the game based solely upon return, ignoring that the highest return game at that casino is where you cross the street without looking while onlookers place bets. He knows that although the return is good that the risk is also high. Good decision making requires gathering and considering all information available. Good or bad can not be based upon return alone.


Would you bet your entire net worth on a 2 to 1 shot? 10 to 1?

Some/most bets need to be judged not just on the math but on the consequences should you win or lose.

Russian roulette, 1 round in a 6-shooter for a million dollars. Is that a good idea?

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Originally posted by: snidely333
Russian roulette, 1 round in a 6-shooter for a million dollars. Is that a good idea?

It is for eighty eight and a third percent....well actually it depends on how much you value your life. If you value your life less than $883,333.33 then it's +EV.
Quote

Originally posted by: snidely333

Would you bet your entire net worth on a 2 to 1 shot? 10 to 1?

Some/most bets need to be judged not just on the math but on the consequences should you win or lose.

Russian roulette, 1 round in a 6-shooter for a million dollars. Is that a good idea?


You seem to be focusing on examples of decisions, which is fine. But the purpose of this post was to determine if people can make such decisions without knowing the outcomes and what factors they would include.

Secondarily, it was intended to highlight the issue of good outcomes not validating bad decisions.

What people should take away from this is that a good decision remains a good decision regardless of the outcome...and visa versa. Don't starting telling your kids it's safe to cross busy streets without looking both ways, just because you've made it across safe yourself a few times.
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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
Would you be able to judge the decision GOOD or BAD prior to playing and without knowing the outcome?

Many decisions are not necessarily good or bad, but some are better than others. You take the information you have and make the best decision possible. I had a boss once (software industry) that pointed out that indecision is sometimes the worst decision. Pick a direction and go with it.

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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
And would you second guess yourself after knowing the outcome?

No, because I made what I felt was the right decision given the information I had at the time. But I would use that information the next time I have to make a similar decision.
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Originally posted by: KayPea
Quote

Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
Would you be able to judge the decision GOOD or BAD prior to playing and without knowing the outcome?

Many decisions are not necessarily good or bad, but some are better than others. You take the information you have and make the best decision possible. I had a boss once (software industry) that pointed out that indecision is sometimes the worst decision. Pick a direction and go with it.

Quote

Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
And would you second guess yourself after knowing the outcome?

No, because I made what I felt was the right decision given the information I had at the time. But I would use that information the next time I have to make a similar decision.


Then you'd be making Thomas Bayes proud...

I've always found Bayesian inference goes best with a nice chianti or barbera...of course I'm always adjusting that based on new information.

~FK
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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
Then you'd be making Thomas Bayes proud...


Since this is a gambling forum, it's probably worth noting that Bayesian logic can't help you decide how to play a given game, except maybe poker, where you are playing against other players that may be using questionable logic. Just because red has come up 20 times in a row does not mean that it will always be red or that black is due. But most decisions in life are not as simple as what cards to hold in a game of VP.

When it comes to picking a game to play, I'll use past experiences of chair comfort and quality of drink service in an area in addition to game payback, variance, and required skill level. This will have me picking the 99% game over the 101% game every time because those other factors outweigh the EV for the sixty hours that I'll play over the course of a year.

So choosing 99% payback is "good" because I have a padded chair and can still play accurately enough for minimal monetary risk on a low variance game after the four drinks that my favorite cocktail waitress will bring me during the hour or two that I play.
How about the answer "I really don't know but I'm about to find out - wanna come along?"
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