Nearing Completion of Evaluation of RS system (not)

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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
I have yet to hear a convincing augment as to why a 1 second pause between hands is any different than a 1 year pause between trips. And notice I still used the word, "pause". Since every hand one plays in video poker is an independent random event, they are no more or less connected to each other because you walk out of the casino and sleep in your own bed between hands. To the machine a pause of any duration is still a pause. 1 seond, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 year, makes no difference to the machine. The difference is only in people's perception.


Because it's fun to do so. Fun is the only logical reason to play a game where you have a mathematical disadvantage. So if it adds to the fun to score by the session, day, or series, then do it.

This is no different than baseball, a game that is considered by many to be a fun pastime. Each swing of the bat is an independent trial. Yes we have "at bats" that consist of either a win or three loses. These at bats are grouped by innings, and then by games, series, and seasons. Why not just tally the number of runs per team for the year? Because it is more fun to break it down. And speaking of breaking it down, baseball has more statistics collected than I can imagine. I think they can tell you how well a player performs on Tuesdays with a zero in the date.

Not only do I keep score by session, day, and trip, I also collect useless statistics. This trip I'm counting quads to see if I can hit at least one quad for every card denomination. Why perform such meaningless record keeping? Because I find it fun. And boys just want to have fun.
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Originally posted by: KayPea
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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
I have yet to hear a convincing augment as to why a 1 second pause between hands is any different than a 1 year pause between trips. And notice I still used the word, "pause". Since every hand one plays in video poker is an independent random event, they are no more or less connected to each other because you walk out of the casino and sleep in your own bed between hands. To the machine a pause of any duration is still a pause. 1 seond, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 year, makes no difference to the machine. The difference is only in people's perception.


Because it's fun to do so. Fun is the only logical reason to play a game where you have a mathematical disadvantage. So if it adds to the fun to score by the session, day, or series, then do it.

This is no different than baseball, a game that is considered by many to be a fun pastime. Each swing of the bat is an independent trial. Yes we have "at bats" that consist of either a win or three loses. These at bats are grouped by innings, and then by games, series, and seasons. Why not just tally the number of runs per team for the year? Because it is more fun to break it down. And speaking of breaking it down, baseball has more statistics collected than I can imagine. I think they can tell you how well a player performs on Tuesdays with a zero in the date.

Not only do I keep score by session, day, and trip, I also collect useless statistics. This trip I'm counting quads to see if I can hit at least one quad for every card denomination. Why perform such meaningless record keeping? Because I find it fun. And boys just want to have fun.


My friend, I never said it wasn't more fun. I have no doubt whatsoever that regular visits from the TRF would make a lot of people's lives happier and more fun. The problem is this same dynamic that for you is fun is one of the primary risk factors for pathological gambling. You can embrace it. As a public spokesperson with a book on VP I have to condemn it, because what makes gambling fun also makes it more addictive.

I'm not disagreeing with you in anyway, just understand I don't have the luxury of being soft on this issue even if I wanted to. I may not be a doctor, but I try to live by the moto, "do no harm".

Every book on pathological gambling I have read says things like this are major risk factors. That's why I talk out about them. Ruining people's fun is the furthest things from my mind. It's just hard to talk about gambling honestly without taking a little of the polish off...sorry!

I should say that I'm not actually encouraging people not to do it. Do it, just do it with eyes open and with full knowledge of what you are doing...
I just read this post by Rob Singer on Alan's site.

I just read Frank's post on LVA reacting to how some people feel that a "pause" of a day or whatever in-between playing sessions in video poker is somehow different than simply stringing it all into one long session as far as play results go. In it he indicated an article he wrote on some geek-infested forum or site referring to some "Fairy" as well as several other characters only those with overactive & slightly troubled minds might conjure up in explanatory messages.

As issues with vp go, right now Frank is immersed in what makes the Singer Play Strategy (SPS) tick, so it is only natural that when he doesn't understand something he will write about it over & over again until he has convinced himself I'm wrong and CASE CLOSED! And he well may receive the kudos, hand shakes, and pats on the back from a group of nerds who look at the world as one great big theoretical probability curve, but in the real world that route will never make the grade.

This issue of course has arisen because of the way my strategy has been developed, which requires I play a session in Nevada, immediately drive back to Phoenix upon attaining my win (or loss) goal for the session, and not play again until returning to Nevada on my next trip. The big question seems to be, what difference could it possibly make how long....1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year....before I went back for another SPS session? After all, the machines have no memory or clue and they do not know it's me out there, right?

Further on in Frank's dissertation about the subject, he claims he's done some sort of unsupported "study" about how players looking at play in this manner are prone to becoming addicted to the game. Again, as with nearly everything Frank asserts, it comes from theory, mathematical probability equations and formulas, or from reading. It is rarely the product of actual events or experience.

That's where -- and why -- my words are worth far more than his on this subject. Prior to developing SPS, I was an AP who solidly believed video poker would be one lifelong event. I could only play every month or two, but I looked at those sessions as one continuous event. In other words, I have experience in doing & thinking that, and I understand where & how I made my mistake.

Enter SPS--where each individual session is as different and separate from one another as each dealt hand always is. Which reminds me....AP's and those who live by theory first, are always quick to point out how session outcomes are just one long continuously inter-related string of events, but HANDS remain unaffected or related to any that have come before or that have yet to come. This is classic talking out of both sides of the mouth.

What makes SPS unique & consistently as well as cumulatively successful, is the fact that no one part of it is any more important than any other part. For example, required bankroll is just as meaningful as discipline, which is just as meaningful as following the strategy to the letter, which is just as important as having the right support system in place, which is just as important as only playing it if you are in decent shape, which is just as important as taking at least a week off in-between sessions. None of this will get through to very many AP's of course, because so many of them are fat and completely out of shape, they chain smoke, their discipline only goes as far as sitting at the machines until they get close to passing out or go broke, and most are loners with little to know family that would give them support for what they've chosen to do.

Why the minimum one week wait between sessions, and how can that possibly affect results? Very simple. When a win goal is met - and it was over 85% of the time - a certain satisfaction ensued, and that 300 mile drive home was enjoyable and even safer to an extent. The time at home with my family was affected by this even if only slightly, and the next week's trip back was fun because of winning the last time. As a result, I was always fully prepared in both body AND mind, which means less irritation while playing a very unforgiveable game and waiting patiently for that one winner that will send me home, and this resulted in less errors in optimal play as well as in when to make those ever-important special plays that deviate from expert strategy. Also, the fact that play always stopped at a higher-than-$1 denomination and always re-started back at dollars and usually at the much less volatile game of BP, while not mathematically affecting overall long-term distribution, was increasingly important because my play never did and never would go beyond being individual, unrelated short term sessions....just as individual hands have no relation to one another.

And what about the possibility of addiction? Well again, when AP's and math people claim they DON'T GAMBLE because they are, eh-em, "playing with an edge" all that means is they are in severe denial. These people play as often as possible and sit like silly zombies at the machines for as LONG as possible - chasing slot club points and long term dreams. So tell me, is this more or less addiction-prone that weekly sessions where you get up and go home immediately upon attaining a pre-determined goal??

This is what it's all about people: EXPERIENCE, and not simply quoting obscure names who wrote things down on grape leaves thousands of years ago. I've been on both sides of this fence, unlike ANYONE else, and until someone has the courage & wherewithal to do as I have done, they will never be qualified to fully discuss the ramifications of why SPS sessions are short term bursts of play--really not any different to how they play. I believe Jesus Christ said that too. The book is too old to read the title, but it's a really, really strange name. Last edited by Rob.Singer; Today at 08:06 AM.

I wonder if Rob Singer also believes that setting "win goals" would mean you could also win consistently on blackjack with a 0.18% to 0.4% casino edge. Aren't those even better odds than some of the Video Poker pay schedules?
When I have a little more time I'll try to reply more completely to some of this info a2a3dseddie has shared with us. I'll be out most of the day.

I would like to state at this time that most of the material I publish in the monthly Blackjack Insider News Letter is from unfinished or cut material that I wrote years ago when writing my book, before I knew of Rob and any perceived connection to my current work on evaluating his system is purely coincidental. I've been saying stuff like this for ten years since I began writing. The largest chapter in my book is on cognitive distortion and this has always been one of my favourite topics. I'm sorry Rob feels this is in some way connected to him, but I had scheduled to release this particular article several months before I started doing the RS Eval. It was delayed because of my article on the G2 convention and would have been published even if I'd never heard of Rob. The article is free of reference to Rob or his system and honestly I'm not sure why he felt it had anything to do with him.

It's about how people wipe the slate clean when they gamble so that "wins" can be claimed irrespective of previous losses.

I believe it is Rob's assertion that he is ahead overall, so it would not apply to him at all if that is true. I have never doubted him on this point or questioned the veracity of his claims of being ahead.

The article was for people that are behind overall, but still claim loss reductions as "winning".

More later...

As smart as Frank is at math and psychology he still doesn't grasp fully how jealous and petty people are.
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Originally posted by: snidely333
As smart as Frank is at math and psychology he still doesn't grasp fully how jealous and petty people are.


You know I really don't. But it is a failing I have no intention of trying to fix. I would like to continue expecting the best of people and perhaps there's a chance, regardless of how slim, that they will rise to meet the better angels of our nature.

~Vengeance is like a holed water vessel . It holds nothing but the promise of emptiness.


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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
It's about how people wipe the slate clean when they gamble so that "wins" can be claimed irrespective of previous losses.


I think we're having two different conversations again. Before I was thinking you we're asking for valid reasons why you would keep track of wins and loses for past sessions, not why you would avoid keeping track of past sessions.

I think it is essential to keep track of wins and loses, so does the IRS, although I've never personally had reason to ever combine gambling and taxes. The best way to track is at the session level. Once you have that information, then you can mix and match it for all kinds of fun statistics like which game works best for you at which casino. Now if you start believing that you should never play blackjack at one casino because you always lose and only play it at the casino where you always win, then you need to step back and get a reality check, or life will sneak up on you and set you straight when you least expect it.
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Originally posted by: KayPea
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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
It's about how people wipe the slate clean when they gamble so that "wins" can be claimed irrespective of previous losses.


I think we're having two different conversations again. Before I was thinking you we're asking for valid reasons why you would keep track of wins and loses for past sessions, not why you would avoid keeping track of past sessions.

I think it is essential to keep track of wins and loses, so does the IRS, although I've never personally had reason to ever combine gambling and taxes. The best way to track is at the session level. Once you have that information, then you can mix and match it for all kinds of fun statistics like which game works best for you at which casino. Now if you start believing that you should never play blackjack at one casino because you always lose and only play it at the casino where you always win, then you need to step back and get a reality check, or life will sneak up on you and set you straight when you least expect it.


Yep two conversations...I agree with everything you said here.
I'm just stopping home between Christmas parties. What I'd like to discuss later is not HOW Rob's earlier pasted in post diverges from my POV. I'd like to discuss the WHY's.

That we disagree is obvious. Why we disagree is in my opinion more interesting.

Clarity of later posts questionable due to eggnog consumption.
One good thing about SPS is that it encourages you to spend less time at the casino and more time away from the casino. When playing -EV games this will provide you with better results in the long run.

You go to the casino one month and have a big loss, then go the next month and have a small win. If you drive home the second month celebrating the win, then you could be deluding yourself. This is similar to going to the bar to watch your favorite sports team. You can drive home celebrating a win this week, even though they are behind for the season.

As long as this does not cause you to alter your future behavior, then it could be safe. With gambling this delusion could lead to destructive behavior if it causes you to go to the casino too often thinking that you win often where overall you are losing. This is especially dangerous when playing systems that encourage you to increase your bets upon losing leading to several small wins in exchange for a few large loses.
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