Obamacare vs The Supreme Court - Round 2

"The Supreme Court has agreed to hear a new challenge to President Barack Obama's health care law.
The justices on Friday say they will decide whether the law authorizes subsidies that help millions of low- and middle-income people afford their health insurance premiums.
A federal appeals court in [King v. Burwell] upheld Internal Revenue Service regulations that allow health-insurance tax credits under the Affordable Care Act for consumers in all 50 states. Opponents argue that most of the subsidies are illegal."
Ref: The Charleston Post and Courier

"The challenge revolves around three provisions in the Affordable Care Act. Section 1311 of the law establishes state insurance exchanges. It provides, in part, that '[e]ach State shall . . . establish an American Health Benefit Exchange . . . for the State.'
Of course, Congress can’t actually force states to take such a step, as that would be an unconstitutional commandeering of state governments. While the administration believed that all states would eventually create these marketplaces, the ACA nevertheless provides a backstop in case that didn’t happen: Section 1321 specifies that 'the Secretary [of Health and Human Services] shall . . . establish and operate such Exchange within the State and the Secretary shall take such actions as are necessary to implement such other requirements.'
A related provision deals with the calculation and payment of insurance subsidies. To cushion the blow of the individual mandate to purchase coverage and pay for associated increased costs, the ACA includes 'premium assistance' for lower-income taxpayers. These subsidies are available to people whose plans 'were enrolled in through an Exchange established by the State under section 1311 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.'
If you’ve been reading carefully, you can see the problem. By its plain text, the ACA only provides for subsidies for people enrolled in an exchange that was (a) established by the state and (b) established under section 1311. (In case you were wondering, the law defines “State” as “each of the 50 States and the District of Columbia.”) This is the argument, in a nutshell, of those bringing the lawsuit."
Ref: Real Clear Politics

In other words the Supreme Court, among other things, will have to decide if a Law means what it states or means what someone wants it to mean.

" 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-that's all.' "
Ref: Through the Looking Glass, Ch. VI

Indeed, . . . can The Obama make words mean so many different things ?

The problem with the challenge as I understand it is that it was a typographical error. In all the other passages of the health care law there is no mention of just "state" exchanges it just says exchanges. And as conservatives types are found of telling us the thing is thousands and thousands of pages long so one statement that conflicts with 100s of others is the problem. On the practical side if the conservatives win this challenge that means any citizen that received a heath care subsidy will have to pay it back. So by the time this case is ruled upon people could be getting hit with $20-$40k bills from the government from subsidies that were paid for them since the launch of the federal marketplace.
Quote

Originally posted by: DonDiego
"The Supreme Court has agreed to hear a new challenge to President Barack Obama's health care law.
The justices on Friday say they will decide whether the law authorizes subsidies that help millions of low- and middle-income people afford their health insurance premiums.
A federal appeals court in [King v. Burwell] upheld Internal Revenue Service regulations that allow health-insurance tax credits under the Affordable Care Act for consumers in all 50 states. Opponents argue that most of the subsidies are illegal."
Ref: The Charleston Post and Courier

"The challenge revolves around three provisions in the Affordable Care Act. Section 1311 of the law establishes state insurance exchanges. It provides, in part, that '[e]ach State shall . . . establish an American Health Benefit Exchange . . . for the State.'
Of course, Congress can’t actually force states to take such a step, as that would be an unconstitutional commandeering of state governments. While the administration believed that all states would eventually create these marketplaces, the ACA nevertheless provides a backstop in case that didn’t happen: Section 1321 specifies that 'the Secretary [of Health and Human Services] shall . . . establish and operate such Exchange within the State and the Secretary shall take such actions as are necessary to implement such other requirements.'
A related provision deals with the calculation and payment of insurance subsidies. To cushion the blow of the individual mandate to purchase coverage and pay for associated increased costs, the ACA includes 'premium assistance' for lower-income taxpayers. These subsidies are available to people whose plans 'were enrolled in through an Exchange established by the State under section 1311 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.'
If you’ve been reading carefully, you can see the problem. By its plain text, the ACA only provides for subsidies for people enrolled in an exchange that was (a) established by the state and (b) established under section 1311. (In case you were wondering, the law defines “State” as “each of the 50 States and the District of Columbia.”) This is the argument, in a nutshell, of those bringing the lawsuit."
Ref: Real Clear Politics

In other words the Supreme Court, among other things, will have to decide if a Law means what it states or means what someone wants it to mean.

" 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-that's all.' "
Ref: Through the Looking Glass, Ch. VI

Indeed, . . . can The Obama make words mean so many different things ?


Good luck with all that.
Quote

Originally posted by: DonDiego
"The Supreme Court has agreed to hear a new challenge to President Barack Obama's health care law.
The justices on Friday say they will decide whether the law authorizes subsidies that help millions of low- and middle-income people afford their health insurance premiums.
A federal appeals court in [King v. Burwell] upheld Internal Revenue Service regulations that allow health-insurance tax credits under the Affordable Care Act for consumers in all 50 states. Opponents argue that most of the subsidies are illegal."
Ref: The Charleston Post and Courier

"The challenge revolves around three provisions in the Affordable Care Act. Section 1311 of the law establishes state insurance exchanges. It provides, in part, that '[e]ach State shall . . . establish an American Health Benefit Exchange . . . for the State.'
Of course, Congress can’t actually force states to take such a step, as that would be an unconstitutional commandeering of state governments. While the administration believed that all states would eventually create these marketplaces, the ACA nevertheless provides a backstop in case that didn’t happen: Section 1321 specifies that 'the Secretary [of Health and Human Services] shall . . . establish and operate such Exchange within the State and the Secretary shall take such actions as are necessary to implement such other requirements.'
A related provision deals with the calculation and payment of insurance subsidies. To cushion the blow of the individual mandate to purchase coverage and pay for associated increased costs, the ACA includes 'premium assistance' for lower-income taxpayers. These subsidies are available to people whose plans 'were enrolled in through an Exchange established by the State under section 1311 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.'
If you’ve been reading carefully, you can see the problem. By its plain text, the ACA only provides for subsidies for people enrolled in an exchange that was (a) established by the state and (b) established under section 1311. (In case you were wondering, the law defines “State” as “each of the 50 States and the District of Columbia.”) This is the argument, in a nutshell, of those bringing the lawsuit."
Ref: Real Clear Politics

In other words the Supreme Court, among other things, will have to decide if a Law means what it states or means what someone wants it to mean.

" 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master-that's all.' "
Ref: Through the Looking Glass, Ch. VI

Indeed, . . . can The Obama make words mean so many different things ?




Yawn!

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state...

Perfect example Justice Scalia the strict constructionist said this part of it didn't mean anything at all and literally stuck it from the second amendment.
Quote

Originally posted by: malibber2
The problem with the challenge as I understand it is that it was a typographical error. In all the other passages of the health care law there is no mention of just "state" exchanges it just says exchanges. And as conservatives types are found of telling us the thing is thousands and thousands of pages long so one statement that conflicts with 100s of others is the problem. On the practical side if the conservatives win this challenge that means any citizen that received a heath care subsidy will have to pay it back. So by the time this case is ruled upon people could be getting hit with $20-$40k bills from the government from subsidies that were paid for them since the launch of the federal marketplace.
Quote

Originally posted by: DonDiego /Q]



Now wouldn't THAT be a laugh riot!
Quote

Originally posted by: jatki99
Quote

Originally posted by: malibber2
The problem with the challenge as I understand it is that it was a typographical error. In all the other passages of the health care law there is no mention of just "state" exchanges it just says exchanges. And as conservatives types are found of telling us the thing is thousands and thousands of pages long so one statement that conflicts with 100s of others is the problem. On the practical side if the conservatives win this challenge that means any citizen that received a heath care subsidy will have to pay it back. So by the time this case is ruled upon people could be getting hit with $20-$40k bills from the government from subsidies that were paid for them since the launch of the federal marketplace.
Quote

Originally posted by: DonDiego /Q]



Now wouldn't THAT be a laugh riot!


I agree but you have to understand that is the remedy that conservatives are asking for. If they win I don't think it will make them very popular with voters.
Quote

Originally posted by: malibber2
Quote

Originally posted by: jatki99
Quote

Originally posted by: malibber2
The problem with the challenge as I understand it is that it was a typographical error. In all the other passages of the health care law there is no mention of just "state" exchanges it just says exchanges. And as conservatives types are found of telling us the thing is thousands and thousands of pages long so one statement that conflicts with 100s of others is the problem. On the practical side if the conservatives win this challenge that means any citizen that received a heath care subsidy will have to pay it back. So by the time this case is ruled upon people could be getting hit with $20-$40k bills from the government from subsidies that were paid for them since the launch of the federal marketplace.
Quote

Originally posted by: DonDiego /Q]



Now wouldn't THAT be a laugh riot!


I agree but you have to understand that is the remedy that conservatives are asking for. If they win I don't think it will make them very popular with voters.

So, leaving in place legislation that is illegal instead of being "popular" is the right thing to do? It isn't a matter of winning or losing. It is a matter of right or wrong. If wrong is the preferable option to a majority of people in this nation, why in the hell do we even have laws?
Quote

Originally posted by: malibber2
The problem with the challenge as I understand it is that it was a typographical error. In all the other passages of the health care law there is no mention of just "state" exchanges it just says exchanges. And as conservatives types are found of telling us the thing is thousands and thousands of pages long so one statement that conflicts with 100s of others is the problem. On the practical side if the conservatives win this challenge that means any citizen that received a heath care subsidy will have to pay it back. So by the time this case is ruled upon people could be getting hit with $20-$40k bills from the government from subsidies that were paid for them since the launch of the federal marketplace.
i. The "Typo":

DonDiego agrees that in a frantic effort to pass this 100% partisan bill [the most partisan bill since the introduction of the Federal Income Tax], Congress produced a pretty sloppy piece of legislation. Sufficiently sloppy that after Congress had passed it Senator Pelosi [D-CA] stated they would have to read it to find out was was in it. Nonetheless the argument that the legal requirement that subsidies are intended only for those enrolled in a State Exchange is supported by documentation contemporaneous with and subsequent to passage of the Law.

Jonathan Gruber, an expert on health insurance legislation and a key architect of Obamacare, was paid almost $400,000 to consult with the writing and administration on the law. Speaking at a January 2012 symposium at Nobelis, a technical management support organization, he made it clear that the issue under discussion was not a typo. It was, Gruber said, a deliberate policy to twist the arms of reluctant states to set up their own exchanges — and that a failure to do so would mean no subsidies for their citizens.:
******quote***
What’s important to remember politically about this is if you’re a state and you don’t set up an exchange, that means your citizens don’t get their tax credits—but your citizens still pay the taxes that support this bill. So you’re essentially saying [to] your citizens you’re going to pay all the taxes to help all the other states in the country. I hope that that’s a blatant enough political reality that states will get their act together and realize there are billions of dollars at stake here in setting up these exchanges. But, you know, once again the politics can get ugly around this.
***endquote***
Ref: hotair.com

ii. The "Clawback"

The Supreme Court is under no obligation to require citizens to pay back subsidies received in violation of the clear meaning and intent of the Law, . . . just as the Court is not obligated to require the Insurers to give back the premiums paid by those who purchased the Obamacare health insurance.

Theoretically it is a wash anyway. Theoretically, the subsidies were "paid for" by the premiums paid by those actually purchasing Obamacare policies. Those folks received health insurance at a price they were "willing to pay" [given that The Law required them to purchase it] which included [theoretically at least] the subsidies for others; those receiving the subsidies are thankful the poor schlubs who paid full-price helped them out.

Some things are just not practical. The Court does not have a time-machine. It cannot set everything right. It can only do what it can do.
If a ruling is made by the court that says State's who are in the Federal Market place weren't/aren't entitled to the subsides that means people who received them owe the Federal Government $$$$$ baring an act of congress saying they don't have to pay it back. That will be the result. Judges can't make the law either they were entitled to the subsidy or they were not. Roberts will be the deciding judge on this. At least 4 justices agreed to hear this even there were no conflicting rulings in the lower courts.
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