Vegas Free-for-All - "Winning"???

KayPea

Sep 21, 2011
7:04am

Baseball is not a random event as the skills of the different players will affect the ultimate outcome. I was using the analogy of the different innings as independent trials as each inning can have a winner and a loser (or a tie). Putting together nine innings and calling it a game is as arbitrary as my five $20 video poker "innings" that make up my game. After all of the innings are played (baseball or VP) you declare a winner and go home.

As long as you are playing with moderate amounts of entertainment funds, I see no problem with the "I won tonight" or "I lost tonight" mentality without accounting for the past history. Once you start playing with sacred funds, then I think it is a problem regardless how you tally the results.

The danger is that by deluding yourself into thinking you are winning more than you really are may make you exceed your safe entertainment levels and drift into playing with sacred funds thinking it too is safe because you have a high propensity to win.

As the the Superbowl question, you lost $1000 on the game, but won $200 on a halftime bonus, so you're buying drinks after the game.

KayPea

Sep 21, 2011
7:19am

Block User

One delusional thing I do is evade the question of "How did you do?" when returning from a Vegas trip. Rather than say "I lost $600" I'll say "I went to a resort and spent an average of $60 a day on food, drink, and entertainment". This is taking a negative event (losing $600 gambling) and putting a positive spin on it by indicating I got a good value at a vacation resort. Nobody wants to look like a loser, so this is why we delude ourselves and others into thinking we are a winner, or, at least, less of a loser than we really are.

FrankKneeland

Sep 21, 2011
9:04am

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: KayPea
Baseball is not a random event as the skills of the different players will affect the ultimate outcome. I was using the analogy of the different innings as independent trials as each inning can have a winner and a loser (or a tie). Putting together nine innings and calling it a game is as arbitrary as my five $20 video poker "innings" that make up my game. After all of the innings are played (baseball or VP) you declare a winner and go home.

As long as you are playing with moderate amounts of entertainment funds, I see no problem with the "I won tonight" or "I lost tonight" mentality without accounting for the past history. Once you start playing with sacred funds, then I think it is a problem regardless how you tally the results.

The danger is that by deluding yourself into thinking you are winning more than you really are may make you exceed your safe entertainment levels and drift into playing with sacred funds thinking it too is safe because you have a high propensity to win.

As the the Superbowl question, you lost $1000 on the game, but won $200 on a halftime bonus, so you're buying drinks after the game.

Outstanding. I think you've summed it up perfectly. It is only the potential danger of self delusion which should be avoided. For some this is a true mole hill with no need for contrived mountain generation. For others is could be a tip of the iceberg issue and should be avoided.

A rolling stone gathers no moss, but sometimes it gathers a whole lot of other rolling stones. Avalanches often start with a single pebble.

As I said before, if you perceive loss reductions as wins, it is not necessarily a sure determiner that you'll develop gambling problems. It is only a risk factor. What is clear is that if you are 100% honest with yourself about gambling results and do not perceive loss reductions as "wins", your chance of developing gambling problems drops to near zero. I happen to think that is a good thing.

Kudos again on your summation.

snidely333

Sep 21, 2011
9:05am

Block User

Just picked up the Believing Brain from my local library. Any particular chapter(s) I should prioritize?

FrankKneeland

Sep 21, 2011
9:11am

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: snidely333
Just picked up the Believing Brain from my local library. Any particular chapter(s) I should prioritize?

No it's best read in order. I really loved the parts on the neurophysiology of decision making and how creativity has a physical link to paternicity and agenticity. Really, it's all good info.

Thanks for taking my advice on the purchase.

cjwonch

Sep 21, 2011
9:59am

Block User

That old saying that perception is reality strikes true to me in this thread. The perception that because I go to Las Vegas 2-3 times a year with $1000 to loose, that I must have a “problem”. Yet the person I stand behind in the corner store or a co-worker who spends a $100 a week on lottery tickets has no “problem” at all. They glaze over when I start talking about odds and win percentages. They somehow feel that a state game gives them better odds because they “won” on that game.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s their money and they can do what they want with it, but I see many more folks who have this type of thought process. I, like others, keep records of my blackjack and trip dollars. Over 14 years, my blackjack wins are at about +6% mostly due to one monster year. Again, math, which most people don’t want to think about because it hurts their heads. Now this does not mean that for the same time frame that I am a winner, actually I am running at a -5% loss. I play other games and some slots.

So let’s do the math, on average 3 trips a year for 14 years. Each trip I take $1000 approx. So a 5% loss is $2100. So taking that and dividing it by 42 trips (3 per year X 14) that works out to, on average a gambling loss of about $50 per trip. Not bad in my book.

If your still with me, my point for all this is that the folks that we wish to enlighten or influence by this discussion are most likely not reading this forum or looking to have a better insight into how and why they gamble. For me, I am always learning new thing when I go to Las Vegas. It can be about gambling, people, or just how I think. This is a great thread!

FrankKneeland

Sep 21, 2011
10:20am

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: cjwonch
That old saying that perception is reality strikes true to me in this thread. The perception that because I go to Las Vegas 2-3 times a year with $1000 to loose, that I must have a “problem”. Yet the person I stand behind in the corner store or a co-worker who spends a $100 a week on lottery tickets has no “problem” at all. They glaze over when I start talking about odds and win percentages. They somehow feel that a state game gives them better odds because they “won” on that game.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s their money and they can do what they want with it, but I see many more folks who have this type of thought process. I, like others, keep records of my blackjack and trip dollars. Over 14 years, my blackjack wins are at about +6% mostly due to one monster year. Again, math, which most people don’t want to think about because it hurts their heads. Now this does not mean that for the same time frame that I am a winner, actually I am running at a -5% loss. I play other games and some slots.

So let’s do the math, on average 3 trips a year for 14 years. Each trip I take $1000 approx. So a 5% loss is $2100. So taking that and dividing it by 42 trips (3 per year X 14) that works out to, on average a gambling loss of about $50 per trip. Not bad in my book.

If your still with me, my point for all this is that the folks that we wish to enlighten or influence by this discussion are most likely not reading this forum or looking to have a better insight into how and why they gamble. For me, I am always learning new thing when I go to Las Vegas. It can be about gambling, people, or just how I think. This is a great thread!

I believe you are precisely correct. The people in most need of reading this thread are not, and never would be forum members. It is therefore our responsibility to take the word to the street and do what we can. No more can be asked.

‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ ~Edmund Burke

P.S. I certainly have never said that people who blow $100 a week on lottery tickets don't have a problem. Lottery play can be a serious issue for some and is a huge concern to the psychological community. It's just another form of gambling, don't let anyone tell you different.

snidely333

Sep 21, 2011
10:24am

Block User

cjwonch

Sep 21, 2011
12:31pm

Block User

Thanks Frank Kneeland, very thought proving thread.

One other thing that I have noticed is that many folks I have met that have “issues” with gambling also have other addictive behaviors, smoking, drinking, shopping, eating, etc. It makes me wonder if some folks are hardwired for problems with gambling??? Not that they must be problem gamblers but it seems to overtake them at some point.

FrankKneeland

Sep 21, 2011
7:00pm

Block User

Quote

Originally posted by: cjwonch
Thanks Frank Kneeland, very thought proving thread.

One other thing that I have noticed is that many folks I have met that have “issues” with gambling also have other addictive behaviors, smoking, drinking, shopping, eating, etc. It makes me wonder if some folks are hardwired for problems with gambling??? Not that they must be problem gamblers but it seems to overtake them at some point.

What you are describing is known in psychology as comorbid disorders. Pathological gambling has one of the highest rates of comorbidity of any disorder listed in the DSM-IV and is almost never a stand-alone issue.

Some clinicians view it only as a symptom of other underlying problems. If true, the implications are interesting. One could not cure a gambling problem by quiting gambling, since the real issue would be whatever caused the gambling problem to arise. (Please note the research into this is pending.)

I will always try when possible to rate the information I share if it is not well researched or conjecture, or even worse, my opinion.

~FK

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