Setting Win Limitations

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Originally posted by: Liondownnow
Did MoneyLA log in as FrankKneeland?


I think you are safe. To my knowledge, no one wants to be me, including me.

What on earth did I say that might have had you thinking I was someone else?
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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
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Originally posted by: snidely333
A. Using my progressive betting system, I'm willing to risk money (M) to win money (W) with a probability (P) that I will be successful in winning W. As W increases, my probability P to win W goes down. I set W such that P is about 0.85.
B. Going with a higher win rate will lower P and I don't want to lower P.

Therefore, I tempt fate, I win W and then get out of the casino before the law of averages catches up with me. It also prevents me from playing too much and becoming a degenerate gambler addict.


That's a nice description of how you are going to play and why the system you are using includes a win goal, but it fails to explain logically what changes as a result of winning $100 that changes the equation so that discontinuing play is now your decision. The reason it fails to explain it is because at the end of your session the same situation exists that existed at the beginning of your session, nothing has changed, except that you now have $100 more in your pocket to start with.

You are also applying different logic at the end of your play than you did at the beginning of your play. You state, "get out of the casino before the law of averages catches up with me". That situation is just as likely when you walked into the casino as it is when you are leaving. So with the same information and the same thought processes you are coming to two completely opposite conclusions. That should be completely impossible.

We are asking why anyone would logically set a win goal, and your answer is essentially because the system I use has one.

Unless you can explain it better I'm going to have to rule against this as being a logical solution. I agree that in your case setting a goal like this might provide an emotional reason to limit your play (and that might a great idea), but we aren't including emotional reasons in this discussion. The format must be:

A + $0 = A decision to play
A + $100 = A decision not to play

And while we are at it let's define C (choice to continue).

Once we have made the decision to leave what must change for us to play again. For this we will assume that we have just made the choice to leave.

A - C = Discontinuing play
A + C = Resuming play

What transpires between leaving and reentering a casino that reverses our previous decision not to play anymore? The passage of time has not changed the machines, or how much money you have. In fact, for the purposes of argument let's say nothing has changed. Therefore since you have come to two opposite decisions given identical situations, either your decision to leave was wrong, or your decision to resume is wrong. Which is it?

Again, it is entirely possible that people don't make these decisions for logical reasons and THAT'S OK. I would like to know if there is any logic behind these decisions that I'm missing.


I use a progressive betting system with a win goal. Right you are that nothing changed after I won my goal. But, my system wins the goal and then the whole progression of bets starts over again. Since nothing has changed, I could restart my progression and keep playing. But, sitting in a smokey casino is not a healthy way to live. The casino will be there tomorrow. God willing, so will I.
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Originally posted by: snidely333

I use a progressive betting system with a win goal. Right you are that nothing changed after I won my goal. But, my system wins the goal and then the whole progression of bets starts over again. Since nothing has changed, I could restart my progression and keep playing. But, sitting in a smokey casino is not a healthy way to live. The casino will be there tomorrow. God willing, so will I.


OK perfect. You are leaving due to fatigue and not wanting to spend too much time in the casino in a single day. TOTALLY VALID reasons. But you aren't actually deciding to leave because of the win. Got it.
I might be wrong but....it seems Frank is trying to disprove Singer's system by a process of elimination rather than by accepted theorems. Can't be done. 2 to what power results in an odd number? None , you say. If you determined that by the process of elimination I say you just didn't go far enough. If someone gave Singer's system a legitimate trial and lost, Singer could always say he played too long , not long enough, or didn't apply the special plays correctly.It boils down to "it's the math, stupid".

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Originally posted by: oobiedoobie
I might be wrong but....it seems Frank is trying to disprove Singer's system by a process of elimination rather than by accepted theorems. Can't be done. 2 to what power results in an odd number? None , you say. If you determined that by the process of elimination I say you just didn't go far enough. If someone gave Singer's system a legitimate trial and lost, Singer could always say he played too long , not long enough, or didn't apply the special plays correctly.It boils down to "it's the math, stupid".


This is not directly related to Singer's system, which incidentally I'm trying to prove has efficacy, not debunk. I'm trying to understand individual components of different thinking and determining if the reasoning is emotional or logical. There's nothing wrong with making emotional decisions, it's just important to differentiate.

Don't make this about proving anyone wrong. That's a road I don't want to go down.
Win limit is set to decrease the "risk of ruin". Risk of ruin is the loss of your bankroll for that session. The higher the win limit is set, the higher your risk of ruin is.

For example. Say someone has $100 bankroll. He sets a win limit of $1 million dollars. So he either walks away with $1 million dollars or walks away with zero dollars. Chances of him walking away a winner are very slim.

Now, instead of $1 million dollar win limit. Player sets a win limit of $1. Either he walks away with $101 or zero dollars. Chances are pretty high he walk away a winner.

So logical term for setting a win limit is to decrease risk of ruin.
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Originally posted by: lostlockee2
Win limit is set to decrease the "risk of ruin". Risk of ruin is the loss of your bankroll for that session. The higher the win limit is set, the higher your risk of ruin is.

For example. Say someone has $100 bankroll. He sets a win limit of $1 million dollars. So he either walks away with $1 million dollars or walks away with zero dollars. Chances of him walking away a winner are very slim.

Now, instead of $1 million dollar win limit. Player sets a win limit of $1. Either he walks away with $101 or zero dollars. Chances are pretty high he walk away a winner.

So logical term for setting a win limit is to decrease risk of ruin.


You may be referring to a different formula, but Risk of Ruin is always calculated on infinite trials with a finite bankroll. It is not for calculating your chance of losing in a set number of hands. Here's an example formula:

Risk of Ruin = e^-2 x WR x BR ÷ (SD x SD)

* e = Constant (2.718281828)
* WR = Win Rate
* SD = Standard Deviation
* BR = Bankroll
* ^ = to the power of

Therefor you can't reduce "Risk of Ruin" by limiting how much you play, because the formula simply doesn't account for limited play. You must mean, "Chance of losing" or something else. Could you clarify?
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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
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Originally posted by: lostlockee2
Win limit is set to decrease the "risk of ruin". Risk of ruin is the loss of your bankroll for that session. The higher the win limit is set, the higher your risk of ruin is.

For example. Say someone has $100 bankroll. He sets a win limit of $1 million dollars. So he either walks away with $1 million dollars or walks away with zero dollars. Chances of him walking away a winner are very slim.

Now, instead of $1 million dollar win limit. Player sets a win limit of $1. Either he walks away with $101 or zero dollars. Chances are pretty high he walk away a winner.

So logical term for setting a win limit is to decrease risk of ruin.


You may be referring to a different formula, but Risk of Ruin is always calculated on infinite trials with a finite bankroll. It is not for calculating your chance of losing in a set number of hands. Here's an example formula:

Risk of Ruin = e^-2 x WR x BR ÷ (SD x SD)

* e = Constant (2.718281828)
* WR = Win Rate
* SD = Standard Deviation
* BR = Bankroll
* ^ = to the power of

Therefor you can't reduce "Risk of Ruin" by limiting how much you play, because the formula simply doesn't account for limited play. You must mean, "Chance of losing" or something else. Could you clarify?


Does the above calculation work on a -EV game?
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Originally posted by: snidely333
Does the above calculation work on a -EV game?


Absolutely not. The Risk of Ruin on a -EV game is always 100% as the equation always assumes infinite trials.

That's why I said you cannot reduce your Risk of Ruin by limiting play. It's a specific formula used for a specific purpose and is not applicable to this situation. I'm not saying there isn't a formula you could use, just not this one. You're trying to drive nails with a toothbrush using Risk of Ruin in a limited play negative game situation. It will give you an answer, but that answer will always be 100%.
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Originally posted by: Liondownnow
Did MoneyLA log in as FrankKneeland?

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Originally posted by: FrankKneeland
What on earth did I say that might have had you thinking I was someone else?
It was almost certainly not something you said, rather something you ignored. (See the recent, hilarious characterization of MoneyLA as the Kevin Bacon denying donkey from Family Guy. )
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