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3/18/12 6:57 AM
For all you experts out there. Can casinos change the rate of play on all of the slot machines on their floor easily? The reason I ask this is one of my local casinos offers bonus plays for special events, such as St. Patrick's weekend. This is in addition to the normal free slot play. Every time I go to these events the casino is packed. I get slaughtered, rarely even getting any kind of decent return. This past visit I went through $170 in FSP in a matter of a couple of hours while averaging about ninety cents a spin. I played some VP as well but couldn't catch a cold on there as well. I also didn't see much celebrating or a single hand pay the whole time I was there.
Not trying to steal bigdawg's thread, but I spent 3 hours looking through and responding to posts, and thought others might be interested in this one.
I decided to respond to all of the posts from everyone in bigdawg's thread in this one post....you'll have to scroll on that thread to see which quote is from which poster.
I see there's a lot of confusion and misinterpretation of what people have heard. I'll try to clear some of this up....I'm not giving out any secrets here, and all of this information is available on the web, but most people just aren't familiar with the real facts.
As far as my qualifications to speak on this - I'm a senior exec in the gaming industry, but as nobody on this site knows me (other than inadvertently meeting a member at Silverton one afternoon), so take that for what it's worth to you. I am intimately familiar with the inner workings of all aspects of casino operations, have worked at casinos across the country, and love the industry. This post is not connected to my employment or employer in any way, btw.....just as a fan of the casino industry, and wanted to set a couple misconceptions straight with readily available information that can be found elsewhere on the web.
And since I've read these boards for years and can anticipate this, I'll answer the first question upfront: No, I'm not Rob Singer, nor am I CasinoBoss.
This varies pretty heavily, and according to jurisdiction. In Nevada, slots have to be set to a minimim of 75% payout (25% hold). Most places probably will put their % closer to what you state. However, a former gaming agent told me of a couple of places that he said the machines are set to the max allowed by the EPROM (gaming chip).....(no, don't ask).
True, but he didn't explain it properly. The Gaming Commission approves all programs that are set on the EPROMS (after complete testing by the gaming lab), before the EPROMS are purchased by the casino. However, multiple programs are usually included on each EPROM, with different holds for each game. While it is true that the casino cannot change or alter any of the programs, we don't need to....we just select a different approved program with the hold we want.
Not all EPROMS have multiple programs - the wide-area progressives come to mind (the ones that are in multiple properties that are tied together for the jackpot). On some of those machines, there is only 1 program, and the casino cannot change the hold percentage set by the manufacturer.
Actually, the payout percentage is not based on the "life" of the machine, but is calculated on the cycle of the program. The game doesn't remember what the last spin was, nor does it change the payouts based on what it has paid in the past. There would be no reason to "retire" a machine early for precisely this reason. Under the "law of big numbers", the hold will return to normal at some point, even if the players have had a run of good or bad luck over a short period. I've seen new machines pay out the top jackpot on the first day on the floor, and also a bank of machines that statistically are 3 years overdue for the JP to be hit.
Interestingly enough, I've heard some of the video slots have so many possible returns (based on the number of virtual reel stops), some machines have 500 year cycles, meaning that a machine would have to be played continously 24 hours/day, 7 days per week for 500 years before it would be expected that all of the potential combinations have been hit. An individual playing for a day or two on a machine would experience just luck (good or bad), not any real indication of how loose or tight the machine is.
The casinos are required to monitor the games' operations extensively. As a minimum, personnel independant of the slot department are required to review all system exception reports daily and investigate any variances, monthly they review hold percentages compared to system hold percentages, test every machine on the floor every two years to ensure proper connection with the system (usually done by testing a sample of all machines monthly), etc. In addition, other personnel must test samples of the machines every year by pulling EPROMS from the machine and testing them to ensure that the program is the same as the manufacturer's program (via checksums, etc). And that's just a few procedures that are required, and the minimum at that. Many casinos review their risk assessments, and assign additional procedures as they deem fit.
On top of all of that, Gaming audits the casinos every few years, as well as performing interim audits, during which they perform the same procedures and test the machines.
Bottom line is that extremely heavy testing is done to make sure that everything is above board, both for the player and the casino. Ironically enough, we stand more to lose from internal theft than from customer winnings. There are a number of relatively new procedures performed by the casinos due to a big theft a few years back: 2007 Orleans Slot Theft
If you're really bored, you can read all of the MICS (Minimum Internal Control Standards) that must be met by all non-restricted licensees in Nevada for slot machines. It's not something that you would generally read unless you were in the industry, but it is posted online for the world to see. Nevada Slot MICS This is just for slots - there are MICS for each area of casino operations.
Depends on jurisdiction. In Nevada, I don't think that's the case, but PAR sheets are required to be kept available in the slot department. The agents can come in, copy the PAR sheets, and compare them directly to the machine.
Mistakes can and do happen, but they are taken very seriously. A number of years ago, I was looking at this possibility and ran across some machines at one location where we used a slot route operator. Machines had been serviced by slot route employees that reinstalled programs with the wrong hold percentages. It was a serious enough issue that we had the CEO of that company in our offices to explain what steps would be immediately taken to ensure that it wouldn't happen again.
100% correct, arc. It's not that common to change holds on games, and nobody would do it on a regular basis - it's just too time consuming and expensive for the tiny result you'd get in the short run.
I did have a slot tech tell me once that he used to work for a company that got bought out by another company, which then ordered the slot department to tighten most of the machines on the floor....he said it was a real pain. The company that bought them? Well, I'd like to name them, but they have a HUGE legal department, so I'll leave it at that.
I might also add that SBGs (server based games) and SSGs (server supported games)are still relatively rare in casinos, other than brand new ones such as Aria and Cosmo, maybe M. I know TI had some, and other casinos have some on the floor, but they're not the norm yet by any means.
5 years ago, people thought SBGs and SSGs would take the industry by storm. However, 5 years ago, gaming was in a whole different world. When the recession hit, casinos were not as willing to spend all of the time, money, and manpower to rewire and redo their floors, but instead re-theme the games they had, or leave them as they were.
3/18/12 6:57 AM
For all you experts out there. Can casinos change the rate of play on all of the slot machines on their floor easily? The reason I ask this is one of my local casinos offers bonus plays for special events, such as St. Patrick's weekend. This is in addition to the normal free slot play. Every time I go to these events the casino is packed. I get slaughtered, rarely even getting any kind of decent return. This past visit I went through $170 in FSP in a matter of a couple of hours while averaging about ninety cents a spin. I played some VP as well but couldn't catch a cold on there as well. I also didn't see much celebrating or a single hand pay the whole time I was there.
Not trying to steal bigdawg's thread, but I spent 3 hours looking through and responding to posts, and thought others might be interested in this one.
I decided to respond to all of the posts from everyone in bigdawg's thread in this one post....you'll have to scroll on that thread to see which quote is from which poster.
I see there's a lot of confusion and misinterpretation of what people have heard. I'll try to clear some of this up....I'm not giving out any secrets here, and all of this information is available on the web, but most people just aren't familiar with the real facts.
As far as my qualifications to speak on this - I'm a senior exec in the gaming industry, but as nobody on this site knows me (other than inadvertently meeting a member at Silverton one afternoon), so take that for what it's worth to you. I am intimately familiar with the inner workings of all aspects of casino operations, have worked at casinos across the country, and love the industry. This post is not connected to my employment or employer in any way, btw.....just as a fan of the casino industry, and wanted to set a couple misconceptions straight with readily available information that can be found elsewhere on the web.
And since I've read these boards for years and can anticipate this, I'll answer the first question upfront: No, I'm not Rob Singer, nor am I CasinoBoss.
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Slots under a dollar are set between 87-92 percent
This varies pretty heavily, and according to jurisdiction. In Nevada, slots have to be set to a minimim of 75% payout (25% hold). Most places probably will put their % closer to what you state. However, a former gaming agent told me of a couple of places that he said the machines are set to the max allowed by the EPROM (gaming chip).....(no, don't ask).
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They tell me that the pay back rate is set by the manufacturer and CAN NOT be changed by the purchaser or as is in most cases the leasee of the machine. It is also closely regulated by the gameing commission.
True, but he didn't explain it properly. The Gaming Commission approves all programs that are set on the EPROMS (after complete testing by the gaming lab), before the EPROMS are purchased by the casino. However, multiple programs are usually included on each EPROM, with different holds for each game. While it is true that the casino cannot change or alter any of the programs, we don't need to....we just select a different approved program with the hold we want.
Not all EPROMS have multiple programs - the wide-area progressives come to mind (the ones that are in multiple properties that are tied together for the jackpot). On some of those machines, there is only 1 program, and the casino cannot change the hold percentage set by the manufacturer.
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What we all have to remember is that our experience with any machine or machines is very, very short. The payout percentage is averaged over the life of the machine.
I believe my next question to the owner/operator of this large international gaming machine manufacturer will be about "retiring" the machines early if they are not on "average", that is if their lifetime average at the time they remove them is less than advertised.
Actually, the payout percentage is not based on the "life" of the machine, but is calculated on the cycle of the program. The game doesn't remember what the last spin was, nor does it change the payouts based on what it has paid in the past. There would be no reason to "retire" a machine early for precisely this reason. Under the "law of big numbers", the hold will return to normal at some point, even if the players have had a run of good or bad luck over a short period. I've seen new machines pay out the top jackpot on the first day on the floor, and also a bank of machines that statistically are 3 years overdue for the JP to be hit.
Interestingly enough, I've heard some of the video slots have so many possible returns (based on the number of virtual reel stops), some machines have 500 year cycles, meaning that a machine would have to be played continously 24 hours/day, 7 days per week for 500 years before it would be expected that all of the potential combinations have been hit. An individual playing for a day or two on a machine would experience just luck (good or bad), not any real indication of how loose or tight the machine is.
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A better question to the gaming executive might be to ask what type of quality checks and monitoring they do to assure the machines operateas intended.
The casinos are required to monitor the games' operations extensively. As a minimum, personnel independant of the slot department are required to review all system exception reports daily and investigate any variances, monthly they review hold percentages compared to system hold percentages, test every machine on the floor every two years to ensure proper connection with the system (usually done by testing a sample of all machines monthly), etc. In addition, other personnel must test samples of the machines every year by pulling EPROMS from the machine and testing them to ensure that the program is the same as the manufacturer's program (via checksums, etc). And that's just a few procedures that are required, and the minimum at that. Many casinos review their risk assessments, and assign additional procedures as they deem fit.
On top of all of that, Gaming audits the casinos every few years, as well as performing interim audits, during which they perform the same procedures and test the machines.
Bottom line is that extremely heavy testing is done to make sure that everything is above board, both for the player and the casino. Ironically enough, we stand more to lose from internal theft than from customer winnings. There are a number of relatively new procedures performed by the casinos due to a big theft a few years back: 2007 Orleans Slot Theft
If you're really bored, you can read all of the MICS (Minimum Internal Control Standards) that must be met by all non-restricted licensees in Nevada for slot machines. It's not something that you would generally read unless you were in the industry, but it is posted online for the world to see. Nevada Slot MICS This is just for slots - there are MICS for each area of casino operations.
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*Physically, that is. They have to report all changes to the Casino Commission, and that part probably isn't considered so easy.
Depends on jurisdiction. In Nevada, I don't think that's the case, but PAR sheets are required to be kept available in the slot department. The agents can come in, copy the PAR sheets, and compare them directly to the machine.
Mistakes can and do happen, but they are taken very seriously. A number of years ago, I was looking at this possibility and ran across some machines at one location where we used a slot route operator. Machines had been serviced by slot route employees that reinstalled programs with the wrong hold percentages. It was a serious enough issue that we had the CEO of that company in our offices to explain what steps would be immediately taken to ensure that it wouldn't happen again.
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Lots of good information here. Keep in mind that changing chips take time and a slot tech (unless server based system is in place). This costs casinos money and they aren't likely to do it unless they have a very good reason. Generally, it only happens during scheduled maintenance time. They usually shut down an entire bank of machines and often put signs up to warn customers that the bank will be offline at a specified time.
For server based systems the the machine must be idle for at least 4 minutes and a message is displayed on the screen that a change is being made. The machine is then required to be idle for another 4 minutes after downloading the change. This also takes a technician to make this happen so it will cost the casino money.
100% correct, arc. It's not that common to change holds on games, and nobody would do it on a regular basis - it's just too time consuming and expensive for the tiny result you'd get in the short run.
I did have a slot tech tell me once that he used to work for a company that got bought out by another company, which then ordered the slot department to tighten most of the machines on the floor....he said it was a real pain. The company that bought them? Well, I'd like to name them, but they have a HUGE legal department, so I'll leave it at that.
I might also add that SBGs (server based games) and SSGs (server supported games)are still relatively rare in casinos, other than brand new ones such as Aria and Cosmo, maybe M. I know TI had some, and other casinos have some on the floor, but they're not the norm yet by any means.
5 years ago, people thought SBGs and SSGs would take the industry by storm. However, 5 years ago, gaming was in a whole different world. When the recession hit, casinos were not as willing to spend all of the time, money, and manpower to rewire and redo their floors, but instead re-theme the games they had, or leave them as they were.
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Computer payback percentages are set by the game software chip, which is supplied to the casino (as part of the game, obviously) direct from the manufacturer. Slot buyers at casinos decide which percentage machine to buy at the time of purchase - most games come in 2 or 3 payout percentages. Casinos cannot change the payout rate from hour to hour or day to day. The only way they can do that is to swap out one full machine for another - which is a bit of hassle. They can't just change a chip in a machine, because on power on there are all sorts of internal checks the computer carries out to ensure that all parts in the machine are original and not tampered with - e.g. each chip has its own id / serial number, which is checked for.
What you may have misunderstood is due to this: when a paytable is changed, it has to be reflected in the slot reports as a brand new machine. It isn't a new machine physically, but the TS3-OSMS slot recording system has to recognize it as a new and different machine in the reports. The internal checks on the game are based on the chip itself, not the rest of the hardware.
When we buy a game, we are essentially purchasing a chip (EPROM). On that chip are multiple games, with multiple payout percentages. I've seen chips with a hundred or more games (think video poker that offers 15 types of games, then in each denomination, then with different payouts). We decide which games we want to have available on the machines, and select them after we purchase the chip. As far as swapping out chips, it's done all of the time - when a newer version comes along, or we decide to re-theme the game, we just swap out the chip if it's compatible with the board. I'm not a slot tech, so I don't know all of the details of this, but we use the same boxes for different games all of the time.
Also, keep an eye on a lot of the themed games the next time you go to the casino - you'll see one popular new game switched out for another even newer game, using the same box but changing the exterior displays. There's no way that casinos could afford to switch out complete units every time they upgraded their games.
While I'm at it, a few other common Vegas misconceptions:
Casinos do not pump oxygen into the air (think of all of the people smoking and the potential fire risk).
Machines do not remember their last jackpot - you have the same odds of hitting a royal or a jackpot on the next push of the button, that you had when you hit the previous royal or jackpot. If you like the location you're at, you don't need to move.
Use of a player's card has absolutely no effect on the outcome of a game that you play - just that if you don't use a player's card, you won't accrue comps. That being said, it can affect the offers you will receive from marketing (based on your daily/trip play).
There's no master computer that casino execs can use to push a button and change your slot machine's payouts. SBGs and SSGs are not all that common, and Gaming requirements say there cannot be any credits in the machine when SBGs and SSG games are changed, and there is a delay when games are changed. Most machines run off of programs stored on the machine's chip, and cannot be changed from someone in an office elsewhere.
Casinos are not going to try to cheat customers by altering their slot programs - it's not worth a gaming license, millions of dollars in fines, and prison time to make a few extra bucks at the end of the day. In addition, casinos stand more to gain from program/game chip integrity security from employees than from customers, due to access issues.
OK, that was a long response to a short question. Here's the short answer: you may win (or lose) while you're in Vegas regardless of the holds that machines are set at. I've hit royals on 6/5 VP games, my wife has hit jackpots on participation machines, and I've never met a Wheels Of Fortune multi-million jackpot winner that complained about the hold percentage.
Have fun, and good luck! Did I miss any questions?
(ETA original question and a couple of grammar errors)
