Two Interesting Headlines related to Global Warming

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Originally posted by: DonDiego
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Originally posted by: forkushV
And what is an alkenone proxie?

Voyagers discover the first alkenone proxy on Earth.



Re-enactment provided by "Gay for a Day" in Appalachia
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Originally posted by: Poptech
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Originally posted by: forkushV
Irrefutable fact! How defiant! How bold. Look dude, maybe you should try breathing into a paper bag before composing your next post. (Or better yet, please spare us.)

But you know what I said about my not having a clue as to how to evaluate academic climate research? That goes ditto for evaluating computer database queries. So it still comes down to "Who do you trust?" Me, I trust the MIT PhD/university president/national science board guy over the blogger with no last name. Let's just leave it at that.

I repeat,

Which irrefutable fact would you like to dispute from my article?

This has nothing to do with "trust" but rather computer literacy 101 and the relevance of computer database queries.

Your appeal to authority from someone with no real name at all is not a valid argument. Lets start with one simple question.

Does the Web of Science database have a peer-reviewed filter?


Don't hold your breath pop

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Originally posted by: Poptech
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Originally posted by: forkushV
Irrefutable fact! How defiant! How bold. Look dude, maybe you should try breathing into a paper bag before composing your next post. (Or better yet, please spare us.)

But you know what I said about my not having a clue as to how to evaluate academic climate research? That goes ditto for evaluating computer database queries. So it still comes down to "Who do you trust?" Me, I trust the MIT PhD/university president/national science board guy over the blogger with no last name. Let's just leave it at that.

I repeat,

Which irrefutable fact would you like to dispute from my article?

This has nothing to do with "trust" but rather computer literacy 101 and the relevance of computer database queries.

Your appeal to authority from someone with no real name at all is not a valid argument. Lets start with one simple question.

Does the Web of Science database have a peer-reviewed filter?

Why don't you just sample the articles that are allegedly peer-reviewed or better yet, put a team together to validate the articles according to your objection criteria. Are they peer reviewed? Do they suggest 'man made' climate change? Does the article suggest 'cause for alarm'.

I know that's a lot of work, but then you could actually prove the Author is wrong rather than just suggest his methods may be faulty....That is if you're really interested in the Truth or Falsehood of his position rather than just attacking his credibility. Too much of that goes on. Of course, the original Author could have sampled and tested his hypothesis too, so there's that...But this is actually an opportunity for you to have a truly irrefutable argument about the actual content under discussion rather than objections to a survey's methods .

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Originally posted by: alanleroy
Why don't you just sample the articles that are allegedly peer-reviewed or better yet, put a team together to validate the articles according to your objection criteria. Are they peer reviewed? Do they suggest 'man made' climate change? Does the article suggest 'cause for alarm'.

I know that's a lot of work, but then you could actually prove the Author is wrong rather than just suggest his methods may be faulty....That is if you're really interested in the Truth or Falsehood of his position rather than just attacking his credibility. Too much of that goes on. Of course, the original Author could have sampled and tested his hypothesis too, so there's that...But this is actually an opportunity for you to have a truly irrefutable argument about the actual content under discussion rather than objections to a survey's methods .


SWISH ! two points for the hometown ref !

Professional fact checkers already have done their homework on this topic.
Politifact
"out of 1,372 climate researchers surveyed, approximately 97 to 98 percent of those actively publishing in the field said they believe human beings are causing the climate change, which they term anthropogenic (i.e., man-made) climate change. It also concluded that "the relative climate expertise and
scienti?c prominence" of the researchers unconvinced of man-made climate change are "substantially below that of the convinced researchers."

So its up to AlanLeroy and everyone else to decide who is a better fact checker: Pulitzer prize winning Politifact? Or Andy the blogger whose website (among other things) cites scientists that have accepted and hid money from the fossil fuel industry.

Its really an open question for AlanLeroy. I can throw another wrench into the machine and make it even tougher. I'll invite the guy who mows my lawn to come on this thread and offer his findings on this topic. That way we'll have a valid 3rd option to consider.


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Originally posted by: pjstroh
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Originally posted by: alanleroy
Why don't you just sample the articles that are allegedly peer-reviewed or better yet, put a team together to validate the articles according to your objection criteria. Are they peer reviewed? Do they suggest 'man made' climate change? Does the article suggest 'cause for alarm'.

I know that's a lot of work, but then you could actually prove the Author is wrong rather than just suggest his methods may be faulty....That is if you're really interested in the Truth or Falsehood of his position rather than just attacking his credibility. Too much of that goes on. Of course, the original Author could have sampled and tested his hypothesis too, so there's that...But this is actually an opportunity for you to have a truly irrefutable argument about the actual content under discussion rather than objections to a survey's methods .


SWISH ! two points for the hometown ref !

Professional fact checkers already have done their homework on this topic.
Politifact
"out of 1,372 climate researchers surveyed, approximately 97 to 98 percent of those actively publishing in the field said they believe human beings are causing the climate change, which they term anthropogenic (i.e., man-made) climate change. It also concluded that "the relative climate expertise and
scienti?c prominence" of the researchers unconvinced of man-made climate change are "substantially below that of the convinced researchers."

So its up to AlanLeroy and everyone else to decide who is a better fact checker: Pulitzer prize winning Politifact? Or Andy the blogger whose website (among other things) cites scientists that have accepted and hid money from the fossil fuel industry.

Its really an open question for AlanLeroy. I can throw another wrench into the machine and make it even tougher. I'll invite the guy who mows my lawn to come on this thread and offer his findings on this topic. That way we'll have a valid 3rd option to consider.

I don't think PJ gets my point. I was referring specifically to the claim of 2259 to 1 peer reviewed articles which Mr. Poptech claims he has refuted. In reality he has attempted to refute the author's methodology, but not the actual claims.

This is a rare instance where something supposedly scientific can be proven or disproven without any special degree or competency...just some hard work. My suggestion to actually sample or check the articles is a a solution I offered that would prove these claims are right or wrong. I'm just a problem solver. I question why Poptech hasn't already done this since his original claim was posted over a year ago.

Why doesn't PJ embrace my suggestion? That's ok. I imagine Poppy won't either. I don't think anyone is really interested in finding The Truth...but only trying to prove things they already believe are true.

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Originally posted by: alanleroy
Why don't you just sample the articles that are allegedly peer-reviewed or better yet, put a team together to validate the articles according to your objection criteria. Are they peer reviewed? Do they suggest 'man made' climate change? Does the article suggest 'cause for alarm'.

I know that's a lot of work, but then you could actually prove the Author is wrong rather than just suggest his methods may be faulty....That is if you're really interested in the Truth or Falsehood of his position rather than just attacking his credibility. Too much of that goes on. Of course, the original Author could have sampled and tested his hypothesis too, so there's that...But this is actually an opportunity for you to have a truly irrefutable argument about the actual content under discussion rather than objections to a survey's methods .

Deflecting the question is not an answer. This is a very simple question.

Does the Web of Science database have a peer-reviewed filter?

I can falsify his study by demonstrating that his methodology is worthless and thus his conclusions meaningless.
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Originally posted by: pjstroh
Professional fact checkers already have done their homework on this topic.
Politifact
"out of 1,372 climate researchers surveyed, approximately 97 to 98 percent of those actively publishing in the field said they believe human beings are causing the climate change, which they term anthropogenic (i.e., man-made) climate change. It also concluded that "the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence" of the researchers unconvinced of man-made climate change are "substantially below that of the convinced researchers."

Politifact is not fact checking the studies they are taking the studies as "valid" without checking anything about them. If they had done their homework they would have realized that the study they cited (Anderegg et al. 2010) has been refuted by peer-review.

Climate denier, skeptic, or contrarian?
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Volume 107, Number 39, September 2010)
- Saffron J. O'Neilla, Max Boykoff


Abstract: Assigning credibility or expertise is a fraught issue, particularly in a wicked phenomenon like climate change—as Anderegg et al. (1) discussed in a recent issue of PNAS. However, their analysis of expert credibility into two distinct "convinced" and "unconvinced" camps and the lack of nuance in defining the terms "climate deniers," "skeptics," and "contrarians" both oversimplify and increase polarization within the climate debate.


Expert credibility and truth
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Volume 107, Number 47, November 2010)
- Jarle Aarstad


Abstract: Anderegg et al. (1) state that 97–98% of climate researchers most actively publishing in the field "support the tenets of [anthropogenic climate change] ACC … the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of convinced researchers" (1). The contribution illustrates the predominating paradigm in climate research today. However, whereas expert credibility and prominence may dominate the opinion of what is true, it can never alter truth itself.


Regarding Anderegg et al. and climate change credibility
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Volume 107, Number 52, December 2010)
- Lawrence Bodenstein


Abstract: The study by Anderegg et al. (1) employed suspect methodology that treated publication metrics as a surrogate for expertise. Credentialed scientists, having devoted much of their careers to a certain area, with multiple relevant peer-reviewed publications, should be deemed core experts, notwithstanding that others are more or less prolific in print or that their views stand in the minority. In the climate change (CC) controversy, a priori, one expects that the much larger and more "politically correct" side would excel in certain publication metrics. They continue to cite each other's work in an upward spiral of self-affirmation. The authors' treatment of these deficiencies in Materials and Methods was unconvincing in the skewed and politically charged environment of the CC hubbub and where one group is in the vast majority (1). The data hoarding and publication blockade imbroglio was not addressed at all. The authors' framing of expertise was especially problematic. In a casting pregnant with self-fulfillment, the authors defined number of publications as expertise (italics). The italics were then dropped. Morphing the data of metrics into the conclusion of expertise (not italicized) was best supported by explicit argument in the Discussion section rather than by subtle wordplay. The same applied to prominence, although here the authors’ construct was more aligned with common usage, and of course, prominence does not connote knowledge and correctness in the same way as expertise.

It is no contest who is a better fact checker.
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Originally posted by: Poptech
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Originally posted by: alanleroy
Why don't you just sample the articles that are allegedly peer-reviewed or better yet, put a team together to validate the articles according to your objection criteria. Are they peer reviewed? Do they suggest 'man made' climate change? Does the article suggest 'cause for alarm'.

I know that's a lot of work, but then you could actually prove the Author is wrong rather than just suggest his methods may be faulty....That is if you're really interested in the Truth or Falsehood of his position rather than just attacking his credibility. Too much of that goes on. Of course, the original Author could have sampled and tested his hypothesis too, so there's that...But this is actually an opportunity for you to have a truly irrefutable argument about the actual content under discussion rather than objections to a survey's methods .

Deflecting the question is not an answer. This is a very simple question.

Does the Web of Science database have a peer-reviewed filter?

I can falsify his study by demonstrating that his methodology is worthless and thus his conclusions meaningless.

I am deflecting nothing. I'm giving you a relatively easy way to approach this scientifically.

Let's say "The Web of Science Database does not have a 'peer reviewed filter'....and further let's say that's the only criteria the author used to find these articles from a scientific database. So what? What does that really mean? Did you prove that the articles were in fact not peer reviewed articles? Of course not. You only raise objections about the methods.

The survey could still be right or mostly right or wrong or mostly wrong, right?. I'm shocked that you haven't taken that next step to in fact prove him right or wrong in over a year... since you dispute his methodology and obviously have the tools to look at the data yourself.

What I did suggest is this is a rare case where you can actually prove or disprove a researcher's conclusions since there are a relatively small (2259) and definitely finite number of data points. Those articles can either be sampled or all checked and verified. That is if you are really interested in finding the Truth....which I suspect you are not and probably neither was the original author. I bet Snidely could even tell you exactly how many articles would have to be sampled to prove or disprove your hypothesis with an acceptable level of confidence. But your real hypothesis is something along the lines of "What do I have to do to discredit this person or paper", not "What is the Truth"...Isn't it? That's obviously how some of your opponents work here too....so you're in good company.

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Originally posted by: Poptech
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Originally posted by: pjstroh
Professional fact checkers already have done their homework on this topic.
Politifact
"out of 1,372 climate researchers surveyed, approximately 97 to 98 percent of those actively publishing in the field said they believe human beings are causing the climate change, which they term anthropogenic (i.e., man-made) climate change. It also concluded that "the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence" of the researchers unconvinced of man-made climate change are "substantially below that of the convinced researchers."
"...the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of convinced researchers..."
I couldn't have said it better myself! Of course that's sort of what I've been saying all along.

Poptech, a little advice: Read before you copy-and-paste.



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Originally posted by: forkushV
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Originally posted by: Poptech
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Originally posted by: pjstroh
Professional fact checkers already have done their homework on this topic.
Politifact
"out of 1,372 climate researchers surveyed, approximately 97 to 98 percent of those actively publishing in the field said they believe human beings are causing the climate change, which they term anthropogenic (i.e., man-made) climate change. It also concluded that "the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence" of the researchers unconvinced of man-made climate change are "substantially below that of the convinced researchers."
"...the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of convinced researchers..."
I couldn't have said it better myself! Of course that's sort of what I've been saying all along.

Poptech, a little advice: Read before you copy-and-paste.
DonDiego supposes Poptech has read the Politifact conclusion regarding "climate expertise and scientific prominence". The final link in his post posits such arguments about credibility/expertise are inferior to refutations based upon scientific merit.

The link provided by Poptech, Re: Anderegg at al, argues that attacking "characteristics, qualities, or failings of adversaries rather than the merits of their case" is inappropriate; "Scientific merit does not derive from the number, productivity, or prominence of those holding a certain view—truth by majority rule or oligarchical fiat."
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