What casino game is decided only by the player?

It doesn't matter if the table is bolted to the ground or floating. The table itself is a variable because the shooter has no control of how it will influence the roll. Why is that so hard for you to understand? I'm not the on who stated any thing about air current, mini earthquakes or any of those other variables you mentioned. Don't talk to me as if I am the person who mentioned them, and don't patronize me. The simple fact the shooter doesn't determine the outcome. If the shooter could determine the outcome they could roll the same number every roll. This doesn't happen and is the most simple proof the you're wrong.

"There is only one casino game in which the outcome of the game is decided only by the action of the player"

That is your statement. If the game was decided by only the action of the player then the player could provide the same outcome on every roll. This is not possible. That's all the evidence I need to show the prove the shooter isn't the only deciding factor. Once you can show me a person who can throw out the same number every roll I will change my mind. This will never happen because it's simply not possible. Simple fact is the table and all its variables provide different actions for the dice. I guess you also believe that only you decide your own fate too.....

Excellent Garthman, we are down to the crucial matter.

You wrote: "It doesn't matter if the table is bolted to the ground or floating. The table itself is a variable because the shooter has no control of how it will influence the roll. Why is that so hard for you to understand?"

And here is the exact point of the disagreement. My position is that the table is not a variable-- it is fixed. It is a solid object that does not change. Because it is a solid object that does not change the only variable is the throw of the dice.

If for example you had a machine which threw two dice exactly the same to the exact spot on the table the dice should bounce the same way. This includes throwing the dice by machine and hitting a pyramid or a corner. If the throws are exactly the same, the bounce should be exactly the same. I say this because the table is "fixed" and does not move. If you find this impossible, then consider a machine which propels the dice exactly the same, so that the dice roll to the same end point at the end of the table coming to rest at the back wall without a bounce (actually a legal throw under NGC rules). A machine throwing two dice exactly the same over and over again should get the same bounce from the table over and over again, provided that the machine hits the same spot on the table.

In reality no human can do this. But this separates the shooter in craps from the player in every other casino game. Because in every other casino game you could do the same thing (bet, playing strategy) over and over again but the game has other variables that change including different numbers generated by an RNG or a spinning wheel or the shuffle of a deck of cards.

I think that explains it about as simply as I can. Give me a machine that delivers two dice the same way over and over again on a craps table and you will get the same bounce and result from the craps table-- because the craps table does not move.

This by the way is the theory behind dice influencing. If you have a shooter who can influence the dice by hitting the same spot on a craps table over and over again with a controlled throw, the shooter has a chance to improve the odds of winning. If a machine were built, a machine could be programmed to deliver the same result on the dice over and over again because the craps table is a fixed object. And a machine throwing the dice in a determined, fixed way to the same point on the table will get the same result over and over again.

We know that a human doesnt have this mechanical management that a machine has, but the same principle applies. If a human is able to throw two dice to the same spot on a craps table he should be able to duplicate the results of that throw. That cannot be done in any other casino game. And it is all because the craps table is a fixed object and the reaction of a fixed object is fixed.

I will give you one more example: a car hitting a brick wall at ten miles and hour. The brick wall will not move and the car will bounce off the wall. If ten of the exact same cars hit a similar brick wall ten times at the same points of impact, the same damage will appear to the walls and to the cars. But if each of the ten cars hit the walls at a different speed the damages will be different. What changes is not the wall, but the speed of the cars. Now, substitute dice for cars and go to a brick wall. throw ten pairs of dice exactlhy the same way at ten different speeds and you get ten different results because of that speed.

still not convinced. drop two dice which 6/6 in parallel on a table so they hit the table flat. first from one inch. repeat this a hundred times and the dice should bounce off the table the same way with the same result. now drop the dice from two inches and then five inches and then from ten inches. and as you change the height of the drop the result of the dice will change. dropping the dice from different heights represents the variables of the shooter. but the table does not change. only dropping the dice (the action of the shooter in craps) changes the results.

that's it. that's my final attempt to explain it. those of you still not convinced about the physics of craps should read the book by Sharpshooter (pen name).

There are no machines that meet your criteria. There is no way to place the dice into the machine in exactly the same way. There are still other factors that could influence the dice as has been stated many times and ignored by money. Bottom line is money continues to spew nonsense.

Here's a list of what I can think of that would effect the dice before, during, and after the roll:

Position of the dice before hand
type, weight, consistancy of the paint
placement of the dots
size and weight of the dice

flatness of the table
smoothness of the felt
weight and thickness of the felt
* gravity and any influence upon it

objects in the path of the dice
weight of the chips
* size of the chips

shooters size, weight, shooting style, placement of the dice,
effect of the jumps on the dice, number of hops and skips,
paint of the numbers on the felt, thickness and width,

These are not all, but most of what I can think about while reading this ever expanding thread over a subject that's going to be debated until both major parties are blue in the face. I now return you to your neverending thread on craps. Maybe if it ever ends, you both can get a ride on that snake dog thingy.....

* not an exact number, both are constants (K) pi= 3.14 gravity=9.8 (M per second squared) so any answer derived from these can be debateable.

For all of you who don't agree with what Ive said, PLEASE get a copy of the book written by Sharpshooter, who is an engineer and discusses in detail the physics of the game of craps.

Chef, some of your "variables" are in fact items which are fixed. It does not matter if dice have different weights or paints or designs. that does not change the game. just like the pyramids or felt or bounce of the table do not change the game.

everything you said about how the dice are handled and about the shooter being variables are indeed variables. and that has been my point all along. to quote you "shooters size, weight, shooting style, placement of the dice, effect of the jumps on the dice, number of hops and skips" are all determined by how the shooter throws the dice or the variables of the shooter himself.

if in a game of dice the table is "fixed" the only variable lies with the shooter. Now I will add one more... if the dice are also fixed (and dice are precisely the same at each casino to be approved by regulators) the only variable lies with the shooter.

are we done now?

Depending upon a number of factors the paint can be a variable. The weight of the paint can effect the balance of the dice, too much on this corner or too less on that one. Each dot mush be drilled exactly, however there's that pesky pi making hyperaccurate measurements a big no no. Weight, thickness, and density of the felt and table are going to have various influences upon the dice.

Chef, your lack of knowledge is showing. If the dice are not properly balanced they cannot be used in play. These are regulations.

and regarding the table, while each table is unique, and the surface and bounce for each table is unique, it is a fixed item or variable. from one throw to the next there is no change in the table.

There is balance and there IS balance. The last one is measured from calibrated equipment down to a certain percentage of tolerances. The smaller the percentage the more accurate the measurements. One can measure down to .01 gram and one can measure down to .0001 of a gram. 1/1000th of a gram may not seem like much, however depending upon the tolerances, that tinsey bit may be what is needed. (btw, in some areas, 1/1000th of a gram is nothing. Some measurements have specs down to 1/1,000,000th of a gram. In those uses, a human hair is a ton of weight)

Chef if you think for a minute that the dice are out of balance to a degree that will affect the fair game of dice, please notify the NGC of your findings. I am sure they will want to know. Oh, also tell them about air currents.

I'm not sure on how tight the specs are for weight measurements of dice. As I stated, generally the smaller the better, however it all depends upon the governing body. They make the rules, I would just ensure everything would be well within specs.

Money, when I was in the Air Force, the weight of a human hair over or under was a major deal. (as in make or break a testing session for a multimillion dollar navigation system)