What casino game is decided only by the player?

Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Look, I dont need to dispel anything you are saying. the table is a fixed, solid object. it does not change, it does not rotate, it does not move. it is fixed.

the dice do not change.

only the shooter and his throw changes. If the shooter throws the dice one way, they will bounce accordingly. If the shooter throws the dice another way, they will bounce accordingly. the table does not say how the dice will bounce. the table only reacts to how the dice hit the table.

thats it.

Yes, the table makes craps a random game. but the table reacts to the throw of the dice.

the rng in video poker make video poker a random game, but the rng operates on its own.

do you understand the difference?

the wheel and ball drop in roulette make roulette a random game. the shuffling of cards makes blackjack a random game. but the wheel and the shuffle happen outside of what the player does.

in craps the dice only bounce because the shooter threw the dice so they would bounce. as a matter of fact, if the shooter slid the dice-- they wouldnt bounce and they would slide to the end of the table.

please go read the book.



The problem is you can't prove or disprove anything because you haven't done any sorting out of what effects the dice in any scientific way.

Your words here "the table is a fixed, solid object. It does not change, it does not rotate, it does move, it is fixed." Then how can the table react to anything? If I throw a ball at a wall, the ball hits the wall and goes on its merry way. The wall doesn't react, it's just a wall.

The dice do change. They are effected by a number of forces, however since you haven't eliminated any of them, you don't know what forces are at work.

You haven't proven the effect of the shooter in any way scientifically measurable. What is the interaction of the tiny hairs on the hand as they interact with the dice as they are rolled? You are trying to prove a point without any proof. It's like saying the world is round without doing any walking or sailing.

I can see what your going for, but you can't get there yet, you need a car cause your feet can't pedal you to where you want to go. The car's too heavy.
Chef... the table doesnt move. the dice move. the dice move because the shooter threw (rolled) the dice. for every action there is a reaction. I think it is Newton's third law of physics: Newton's Third Law of Physics states for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In the case of craps, the shooter throws the dice and it hits the table, the wall, the pyramids. the table, the wall, the pyramids do not hit the dice.

the shooter makes the dice move. the table does not move the dice, and the dice do not move themselves.

please, read the book.
Quote

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Chef... the table doesnt move. the dice move. the dice move because the shooter threw (rolled) the dice. for every action there is a reaction. I think it is Newton's third law of physics: Newton's Third Law of Physics states for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In the case of craps, the shooter throws the dice and it hits the table, the wall, the pyramids. the table, the wall, the pyramids do not hit the dice.

the shooter makes the dice move. the table does not move the dice, and the dice do not move themselves.

please, read the book.


The shooter's knetic energy is being used to effect the dice, who's transferred energy is transmitted to the table, which is reflected back into the dice.

Look, it's too damn early to go into physics as I have just taken my morning meds and its almost time for my after pill nappy time. So, if you will excuse me, I'm going for some sleepy and I'll return in an hour or so.
You just said it... "The shooter's knetic energy is being used to effect the dice." that's it my friend. the shooter.

the shooter sends the dice on its path. how the dice reacts with the table is all based on what the shooter does.

isnt this why the shooter decides the game? because the shooter and the shooter alone sends the dice to the table? that there is no outside decision making process such as a wheel or a shuffle or an RNG?? is it really that difficult a concept?

yes the table reflects the shooter's throw of the dice. again, as you said: "The shooter's knetic energy is being used to effect the dice, who's transferred energy is transmitted to the table, which is reflected back into the dice." it's all because of the shooter.

there is no shuffling of cards, there is no RNG picking numbers or cards, there is no spinning wheel or dropping of a ball by a dealer. its all because of the shooter throwing the dice.

So, according to money dragging the dice or chips across a felt surface will not change that surface in the slightest way. Yeah, right. Oh, and someone leaning on a table that is sitting on soft carpet will have zero effect. The table is NOT fixed. It may not move very much, but that is not needed. What can I say about a person who ignores simple, obvious things.

We already discussed several other factors including air flow, air pressure, gravitational influences, the position of the dice when presented to the shooter, other people around that might delay the action or cause a shooter to get upset or have an adrenaline rush, crowds around a table that influence the position of the shooter, etc. I'll bet there are literally dozens of minor influences. Many that haven't been touched on here. You know, how much sleep did the shooter get the night before. How much alcohol was placed in their drink by a bartender, all the influences in life that impact the current metabolic state of the shooter.

Money also doesn't understand what influencing the dice means. It does not mean controlling the final result. It only means slightly increasing the odds of a particular result. Therefore, it allows for all the small influences that have been mentioned. In fact, since the dice cannot be perfectly controlled by a human shooter (or robot), there would be times these other factors could correct for a variation in the toss to give the result desired.

BTW money, some of us already understand some physics. We don't have to read a book. We also understand simple logic. The world around the shooter is not constant.
Quote

Originally posted by: arcimedes
So, according to money dragging the dice or chips across a felt surface will not change that surface in the slightest way. Yeah, right. Oh, and someone leaning on a table that is sitting on soft carpet will have zero effect. The table is NOT fixed. It may not move very much, but that is not needed. What can I say about a person who ignores simple, obvious things.

We already discussed several other factors including air flow, air pressure, gravitational influences, the position of the dice when presented to the shooter, other people around that might delay the action or cause a shooter to get upset or have an adrenaline rush, crowds around a table that influence the position of the shooter, etc. I'll bet there are literally dozens of minor influences. Many that haven't been touched on here. You know, how much sleep did the shooter get the night before. How much alcohol was placed in their drink by a bartender, all the influences in life that impact the current metabolic state of the shooter.

Money also doesn't understand what influencing the dice means. It does not mean controlling the final result. It only means slightly increasing the odds of a particular result. Therefore, it allows for all the small influences that have been mentioned. In fact, since the dice cannot be perfectly controlled by a human shooter (or robot), there would be times these other factors could correct for a variation in the toss to give the result desired.

BTW money, some of us already understand some physics. We don't have to read a book. We also understand simple logic. The world around the shooter is not constant.


What I think Money doesn't see is what happens after the shooter touches the dice. That is where the real fun begins in a physics sense. I'l bet the total lenght of the equations should reach 9 to 12 feet. Pop quiz anyone?
Quote

Originally posted by: chefantwon
Quote

Originally posted by: arcimedes
So, according to money dragging the dice or chips across a felt surface will not change that surface in the slightest way. Yeah, right. Oh, and someone leaning on a table that is sitting on soft carpet will have zero effect. The table is NOT fixed. It may not move very much, but that is not needed. What can I say about a person who ignores simple, obvious things.

We already discussed several other factors including air flow, air pressure, gravitational influences, the position of the dice when presented to the shooter, other people around that might delay the action or cause a shooter to get upset or have an adrenaline rush, crowds around a table that influence the position of the shooter, etc. I'll bet there are literally dozens of minor influences. Many that haven't been touched on here. You know, how much sleep did the shooter get the night before. How much alcohol was placed in their drink by a bartender, all the influences in life that impact the current metabolic state of the shooter.

Money also doesn't understand what influencing the dice means. It does not mean controlling the final result. It only means slightly increasing the odds of a particular result. Therefore, it allows for all the small influences that have been mentioned. In fact, since the dice cannot be perfectly controlled by a human shooter (or robot), there would be times these other factors could correct for a variation in the toss to give the result desired.

BTW money, some of us already understand some physics. We don't have to read a book. We also understand simple logic. The world around the shooter is not constant.


What I think Money doesn't see is what happens after the shooter touches the dice. That is where the real fun begins in a physics sense. I'l bet the total lenght of the equations should reach 9 to 12 feet. Pop quiz anyone?


Absolutely correct. Even if the shooter attempts to place the dice in a particular format in his hand, he can never get it the same every time. The position of the dice when he picks them up WILL make a difference. In addition, a little more or less sweat on the hand caused by someone else making big bet on a particular result would influence the release. The list goes on and on and on ...

And, of course, money ignores that the vast number of craps players do not even try to set the dice in any particular way. Hence, the position of the dice when they pick them up is a SIGNIFICANT factor.
Another factor we haven't touched on too much is the design of the craps table. Even if a player could make the exact same motion with the exact same position of the dice in his hand (yeah, I know, impossible) the table itself will react differently based on its specifications.

https://www.goldentouchcraps.com/article_crapstables.shtml
Actually it's the dice reacting to hitting the table and the objects on the table. You already said it yourself that the outcome is random. It's random because the shooter has no control of the outcome and is not the only variable. After the dice are let go everything changes. The original outcome is lost because of several factors that the shooter has no control of. There is a word to describe people like LA it's called delusional. It's impossible to argue that the player controls every factor of the outcome. If they did control all factors of the roll and outcome then the game would be decided by the player. This is simply not the case at all.
guys, the player does not have to CONTROL the outcome. it is a random game. But only the Player (the shooter) sets the dice on its path. if the dice hit a pyramid or hit a stack of chips it is because the shooter threw the dice in such a way that they hit the pyramid or the stack of chips.

there is no outside influence affecting the game.

the game is two dice being thrown on a table, and to that only the shooter does the work. there is no other variable in the game such as an RNG or a shuffle of cards.

you seem to think that because the game is random (not talking about DI here) that the shooter is not responsbile for the dice. well, only the shooter is responsible for the dice.

and Arc, please, no craps table is on a soft carpet that would be affected when someone leans on the table. please. if you are going to create scenarios, at least make them a bit realistic. and all craps tables are unique, even if they are made with the same specs -- every craps player knows that. but we also know that the craps table doesnt move the dice. we know that the dice move on the craps table.

what is amazing is that all of this back and forth is over a basic concept that the shooter throws two dice and the result of that throw determines the game, and that there is no shuffle of cards, no RNG, no spinning wheel or anything by a third party. its all the shooter. and we've gone eight pages because some of you think that a random game somehow takes the end result away from the shooter-- when it is the shooter who is participating in a random game.

wow.
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