What casino game is decided only by the player?

Yes, there is a randomizing agent. It is the environment including the table and everything else that has been mentioned. Just because you can't see this is functionally identical to VP and an RNG says one heck of a lot about you. It also explains why you've been so confused about all the other aspects of VP and why you believe the nonsense Singer spews. You simply have no capability for critical thinking.

Here's a thought experiment. Assume the dice were thrown by a machine instead of a player, a machine that could throw each time with exactly the same force, the same dice setting, the same landing area on the table, etc. So, the "throw" is taken out of the equation since it is the same. The results would still be random. This is because the table has those pyramid shaped wedges all around the inside of the table that the casino insists the dice MUST hit otherwise the throw can be null and void. It is those small pyramid wedges that all craps tables are lined with--that are the randomizing agents and they influence the outcome for the most part, not the thrower of the dice.

Arc and others: you continue to pound away at the "randomizing" of the craps game. Yes, craps can be a random game. But why does the randomization of the game take the decision-making away from the shooter? This is the point you are pounding away at.

Yes, the table set up will randomize the game, but the decision of the game still comes only from the shooter who throws the dice.

Video poker, roulette, blackjack, baccarat are also random games -- but the decision for those games do not rest only with the player. Those decisions are also made by a dealer, a wheel, a shuffled deck, etc.

Please explain how the random game of craps removes the decision making of the shooter?

Vegaswatcher... I like the idea of a "machine" to throw the dice. Take it one step further please: the machine can throw the dice with the same force, angle, roll, so that the dice can be made to hit the same exact place on the table surface and then bounce to hit the back wall. this machine is so exact that every throw of these two dice is exactly the same, hitting the exact same points each and every time.

if such a machine could do this -- deliver two dice exactly the same way to the same points on the table -- would the result of the two dice always be the same?

for example, if the two dice always hit the table under the pyramids with the same force, pitch and roll, wouldnt the dice always bounce off the same and end with the same result? or, if the two dice always hit the same two pyramids on the back wall in the same spot from the same angle, using the same force and pitch and roll, wouldnt the dice always bounce off those pyramids the same way and end with the same result?

if the machine were exact why wouldnt the result of the "machine toss" be the same?

my point is that if there were such a machine with a perfectly controlled throw, every throw of the dice by this machine could be made to have the same path and bounce and result as any other roll. and if you agree that a machine could be built to do this it would also mean that the "variable" of the throw is what determines the end result of the dice.

I guess no one ever saw the Star Trek TNG epsiode 'The Royale'.

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Lt. Commander Data: [right before beginning his winning streak at the craps table] "Baby needs a new pair of shoes. "

I'm going to break the bank and buy the casino.

You answered your own question. The table adds a randomization to the game. So does the shape of the dice and other factors. Since there is randomization added to the game it it's impossible for only the shooter to decide the game. If the shooter was the only "decision-making" part of the game, how would the shooter not be able to already know the end result before it was over?

This is probably the most interesting aspect of this thread.


I think Money is trying to say that the player decides the outcome because it is the player that triggers (rolls) the RNG (dice) that generates the result. I think Arc is saying that is analogous to VP because there, too, the player triggers (pushes deal) the RNG (computer chip) the generates the result. In both games there is a randomizer (dice or CPU) and the player triggers it by their action (dice roll or timing of the button push). This is different from games where a dealer triggers the RNG by shuffling cards or spinning a wheel while the player watches.

Now we are getting somewhere. First, KayPea, thanks I think you are summing up the differences here.

Garthman, I also appreciate your comment.

My point is that even though craps is a game played in a "random environment" that only the shooter is part of this random environment. Okay, that's what I said. Now I see that you are equating the random environment of the craps table with a RNG in video poker or slots, and with shuffling the cards in blackjack, and with the wheel in roulette and so on.

Okay. there is the gulf between us.

If you are putting the random environment of a craps table on even par with shuffling, wheels, RNG then OK, the shooter alone cannot decide the game by himself.

However, I don't consider the random environment of the craps table to be a "participant" in the game. I consider the "craps table" to be an "obstacle" that challenges the shooter.

Is this semantics? You might certainly say so. But I believe the dice throw is an independent act, and the shooter can AVOID the obstacles on the table or limit the effect of the obstacles on the table. I do not believe for an instant that a player at baccarat or video poker or blackjack can influence the wheel, the shuffle or the RNG. I believe that in the other games you are dependent on the shuffle, the wheel and the RNG, although you can make your choices in those games.

In craps ALL of the obstacles are known. You see them in front of you. You can manage them or avoid them. You do not have that ability in any other game.

Please explain how the decision making is removed from a VP player. The machine does not press the deal/draw buttom by itself. Every time you try to reword your claims they come right back to bite you.