What casino game is decided only by the player?

Quote

---

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
If you are putting the random environment of a craps table on even par with shuffling, wheels, RNG then OK, the shooter alone cannot decide the game by himself.

However, I don't consider the random environment of the craps table to be a "participant" in the game. I consider the "craps table" to be an "obstacle" that challenges the shooter.

Is this semantics? You might certainly say so. But I believe the dice throw is an independent act, and the shooter can AVOID the obstacles on the table or limit the effect of the obstacles on the table. I do not believe for an instant that a player at baccarat or video poker or blackjack can influence the wheel, the shuffle or the RNG. I believe that in the other games you are dependent on the shuffle, the wheel and the RNG, although you can make your choices in those games.

In craps ALL of the obstacles are known. You see them in front of you. You can manage them or avoid them. You do not have that ability in any other game.

---

Quote

---

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
But I believe the dice throw is an independent act, and the shooter can AVOID the obstacles on the table or limit the effect of the obstacles on the table.

---

Quote

---

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Now we are getting somewhere. First, KayPea, thanks I think you are summing up the differences here.

Garthman, I also appreciate your comment.

My point is that even though craps is a game played in a "random environment" that only the shooter is part of this random environment. Okay, that's what I said. Now I see that you are equating the random environment of the craps table with a RNG in video poker or slots, and with shuffling the cards in blackjack, and with the wheel in roulette and so on.

Okay. there is the gulf between us.

If you are putting the random environment of a craps table on even par with shuffling, wheels, RNG then OK, the shooter alone cannot decide the game by himself.

However, I don't consider the random environment of the craps table to be a "participant" in the game. I consider the "craps table" to be an "obstacle" that challenges the shooter.

Is this semantics? You might certainly say so. But I believe the dice throw is an independent act, and the shooter can AVOID the obstacles on the table or limit the effect of the obstacles on the table. I do not believe for an instant that a player at baccarat or video poker or blackjack can influence the wheel, the shuffle or the RNG. I believe that in the other games you are dependent on the shuffle, the wheel and the RNG, although you can make your choices in those games.

In craps ALL of the obstacles are known. You see them in front of you. You can manage them or avoid them. You do not have that ability in any other game.

---

Quote

---

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Vegaswatcher... I like the idea of a "machine" to throw the dice. Take it one step further please: the machine can throw the dice with the same force, angle, roll, so that the dice can be made to hit the same exact place on the table surface and then bounce to hit the back wall. this machine is so exact that every throw of these two dice is exactly the same, hitting the exact same points each and every time.

if such a machine could do this -- deliver two dice exactly the same way to the same points on the table -- would the result of the two dice always be the same?

for example, if the two dice always hit the table under the pyramids with the same force, pitch and roll, wouldnt the dice always bounce off the same and end with the same result? or, if the two dice always hit the same two pyramids on the back wall in the same spot from the same angle, using the same force and pitch and roll, wouldnt the dice always bounce off those pyramids the same way and end with the same result?

if the machine were exact why wouldnt the result of the "machine toss" be the same?

my point is that if there were such a machine with a perfectly controlled throw, every throw of the dice by this machine could be made to have the same path and bounce and result as any other roll. and if you agree that a machine could be built to do this it would also mean that the "variable" of the throw is what determines the end result of the dice.

---

Quote

---

Originally posted by: mrmarcus12LVA

Quote

---

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Vegaswatcher... I like the idea of a "machine" to throw the dice. Take it one step further please: the machine can throw the dice with the same force, angle, roll, so that the dice can be made to hit the same exact place on the table surface and then bounce to hit the back wall. this machine is so exact that every throw of these two dice is exactly the same, hitting the exact same points each and every time.

if such a machine could do this -- deliver two dice exactly the same way to the same points on the table -- would the result of the two dice always be the same?

for example, if the two dice always hit the table under the pyramids with the same force, pitch and roll, wouldnt the dice always bounce off the same and end with the same result? or, if the two dice always hit the same two pyramids on the back wall in the same spot from the same angle, using the same force and pitch and roll, wouldnt the dice always bounce off those pyramids the same way and end with the same result?

if the machine were exact why wouldnt the result of the "machine toss" be the same?

my point is that if there were such a machine with a perfectly controlled throw, every throw of the dice by this machine could be made to have the same path and bounce and result as any other roll. and if you agree that a machine could be built to do this it would also mean that the "variable" of the throw is what determines the end result of the dice.

---

Blah, blah, blah. One could also imagine that by holding a rifle and a 100 yd. target perfectly still, the second bullet would go through the EXACT SAME hole as the first. One could also imagine that dead people are really alive, just in a different place. Or one could just take drugs, and write about the goblins and the voices.

---

Quote

---

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
arc, if you think pushing the button on a VP machine to stop an RNG is the same as a shooter throwing two dice then there is nothing more to discuss. You believe that both decision making processes are equal -- stopping an RNG and throwing two dice. I think they are not the same. I think the craps shooter is independent and the VP player is dependent on an RNG. The craps shooter may be at a disadvantage to the VP player, but the craps shooter is totally responsible for the game with the result of his throw. We will never agree and I think every aspect of this discussion has been exhausted.

---

You are right on one thing ... this discussion has been exhausted. You keep throwing around one nonsense statement after another. The craps shooter is no more "independent" of the randomizing part of the craps game then the VP player is of the RNG. The final result in both cases is determined by that randomizing agent.

Quote

---

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
I just wonder if those who agreed with me on the FIRST page of this thread still agree or if this discussion has changed their position?

---

I doubt it, they were probably just trying to guess what you were thinking.

Quote

---

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Edited to add:

In your second post arc, you wrote: "All you're doing now is claiming that craps is not random. Which, of course, had nothing to do with your original claims."

Well, arc, I never said craps was not random.

---

You said it many times ... every time you claim the shooter "decides" the result you are essentially claiming the game is not random.

Quote

---

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
Youve spent the last few pages saying that because craps is randomized by the table and other conditions that the shooter alone cannot be responsible for the decision of the game. I simply pointed out that even in the random game of craps there is only one shooter and he is throwing the dice that decides the game.

---

And the VP player is pushing a button that eventually decides the game. However, in neither case does the player have any control over the result. The player's action is randomized by the table/RNG which then leads to a result.

Notice what you said. You just stated the shooter "decides the game". That is nonsense. The shooter starts the process and then it is out of his control just like the VP player. This is why I stated you are claiming that craps is not random. If the shooter really could "decide the game" then it would not be random. This is really, really simple stuff.

Quote

---

Originally posted by: MoneyLA
You seem to think the shooter cannot be the only decision maker because -- as you keep pounding away -- the table randomizes the throw of the dice.

Okay. thats what you think. Be well.

---