What casino game is decided only by the player?

In both cases the process is started by the player and then the machine/table, through random processes, produces a result.

As for your claim that the table is not part of the process that determines if a 7 is thrown ... pure nonsense. The table is not perfectly flat, the corners are not perfect arcs. The table pad gets worn and has differing effects on the bounce. Someone leaning on the edge of the table can change things as well.

You just don't want to admit you were wrong ... again.

There's no point in using the word "random" in a discussion with Money, because he doesn't know what random is. Likewise, there is no point in discussing any gambling topic with Money.

This time, Arc, YOU are wrong. The fact that the table has pyramids, is not perfectly flat, has a bump in the middle of the layout to prevent sliding, has rounded corners, gets worn, and has uneven bounces doesnt change a thing.

What I would like you to do is:

a. go to a casino and talk to someone about craps.
b. consult with some of the other posters in this thread who correctly said "craps" is the game.

Im not all alone on this one, Arc.

The truth is you can't admit how the game of craps is played... or you don't know. Youre better off telling me I have my info wrong on video poker. I hope that another craps player will please set Arc right on this. Im afraid I am too exasperated by the discussion.

I think everyone but Snidely wants this. I also want Arci to walk into Lori Nelson's office and ask her the same question. Then, I want him to report back with his findings.

Blah, blah, blah. And now, ladies and gentlemen, for your amusement, the master of the irrelevant and one of Rob Singer's greatest pupils....

Oh, throwing a pair of dice is a real complicated, money. Must be I don't know how. We're not even talking about the game per se, just the dice toss. Silly comments following nonsense will get you nowhere.

I do find it amazing that I've given you REAL, HARD facts and you just ignore them because someone else, probably without thinking too much about it, stated the same thing you believed. LMAO.

I think mrmarcus said it perfectly ... "There's no point in using the word "random" in a discussion with Money, because he doesn't know what random is."

Arc, you just said it in your post above "we're not even talking about the game per se, just the dice toss."

EXACTLY. THATS ALL WE'RE TALKING ABOUT... THE DICE TOSS !!!!

Only the shooter throws the dice. There is no dealer shuffling cards, there is no wheel spinning. There is no random number generator. It is the SHOOTER WHO THROWS THE DICE that's it. Voila!!

And to MrMarcus... this has nothing to do with how the game of craps is randomized. It has only to do with who throws the dice. Yes, there are "obstacles" presented to the shooter -- the pyramids, the bounce, the felt, etc. But it is only the SHOOTER vs these obstacles.

Does this help you understand?

Ok, the SHOOTER WHO THROWS THE DICE.

We all agree. Are we done?

Once again money demonstrates his complete lack of understanding. Are you so completely confused you can't understand simple facts?

There is a randomizing agent in tossing dice. I've already given you several factors that are involved in a dice roll. In fact, if no randomizing agent existed a person WOULD be able to control the dice. There is also a randomizing agent in VP known as the RNG. In both cases the player provides an action (throw of dice/push of button) that is then turned into a result by the randomizing agent. In both cases the action of the player is part of the random result. The dice are tossed in some fashion and the button is pushed at a precise time. If either of these are changed fractionally, then the result will likely be different.

This is really very simple. But it does take some understanding of what random means and the ability to think beyond simple concepts.

Are you kidding? What about the Stick Man who pushes the dice to the player. Ever notice how they'll always flip it off a 7 before they give it the push and different stick men have different pushes. The exact position and orientation of the dice will impact the shooter's throw....therefore it is not the only casino game decided ONLY by the player.