What casino game is decided only by the player?

And, a VP hand is the result of "how" the VP player presses the deal/draw button. Think about that.

You obviously don't have a clue about randomness. You are so far out in left field it's really getting funny and yet you revel in your own ignorance.

I can provide the facts, but I can't teach you to think. Try to move out of your one dimensional thinking and just maybe you will see the light.

Then why comment at all? Of course, the implication you are trying to make is you understand the situation while others do not. But of course, you cannot support that belief, so you hope no one will notice what you are doing. Quite sad actually.

While I've known why you and Dad are confused for quite awhile, I've let that slide to see if you could manage to understand this for yourself. Basically, you still don't understand what an RNG is doing.

The problem is you can see quite clearly what goes into the randomness of a dice toss. All sorts of actions are going on that you can see with your own eyes. What you are missing is understanding how randomness works in a VP machine. Since you can't see it you make incorrect assumptions that clouds your understanding. It doesn't help that you resist all attempts to provide you with the knowledge you need.

Here's a few things to think about. If the shooter shakes the dice in his hand for 20 seconds does that increase the randomness of the toss? If the shooter tosses the dice higher does that increase the randomness of the toss? If a VP machine's RNG cycles 1 second longer does that increase the randomness of the deal?

While I have been totally entertained by this topic, I would like to go back to the original question... "What casino game is decided only by the player?"

It has been argued that the outcome in craps is decided only by the player. If you put aside everything people have said about controlling dice, the shape of the table, etc., IMHO what is rolled on the dice is just one variable in the game. The outcome of the game is how many chips are taken away from you or put in front of you. The outcome is how much is lost or won. As the casino controls the payouts on whatever number is rolled, in the long term it doesn't matter what number is rolled, the casino has control over the house edge and therefore decides the outcome. Yes, you can win in the short-term, but over time the casino controls the outcome of the game just by the mathematics of one of the variables...what number is rolled.

arc: slapinfunk hit the nail on the head in his post which put in simple, exact terms why the shooter in craps differs from the VP player -- but removed the post and in its place wrote: not even worth my time. it is not worth his time anymore nor my time anymore to continue this ridiculous discussion with you. no matter what we write you will come up with some comment about randomness or RNG cycle. you truly are an IBM elitist.

When you can't support your argument with logic you resort to name calling. It is a ridiculous discussion because you refuse to admit you were wrong.

Here's a little thought experiment. Let's assume a VP player takes a pair of dice into the casino. Before hitting the deal/draw button the player throws the dice and then counts slowly up to the value of the dice (2-12) before hitting deal/draw. Is this result now decided by the player whereas it wasn't before?

(Obviously, it isn't. Just like the answers to my questions above were all no.)

Interestingly, the actions of the player are now almost exactly the same as a craps player. A result of the dice throw is used to affect the final result. That is, the dice toss produces a value that now changes the result from what it would have been if the dice toss was different. All that is added is a little button push that is also done by the player.

If you can think through this, you now realize that pressing the button on a VP machine is equivalent to tossing dice as far as the randomness is concerned. Making changes in the way a player does it will change the result for that event. In addition, the table topology and other factors I mentioned will change the result in a similar way that an RNG affects the result. And, in both cases the final result is random.

Randomness is kind of like being pregnant. A process is either random or it isn't. No matter how many body movements or delays are involved, it will not change the event from being random or not.

A dice toss is a random event. A button press on a VP machine is a random event. Since both of these are initiated by the player, they are both equivalent. If one can be thought of as "decided only by the player" then so can the other. That is because the "decided" part only means an initiation of the random event.

The outcome of the roll really has nothing to do with the shooter because the shooter has no control or how the dice will react to hitting against the wall and other objects/surfaces. The shooter can throw at different angle and speeds and the outcome is still random because of variables that the shooter has no control of. If you argue that the player decides the outcome because he/she is throwing it's just as easy to argue that a slot player decides the outcome because he/she is choosing when to stop the RNG and therefore the outcome is based on when the person stops the RNG. The RNG only stops once the player decides to stop it and therefore is the only deciding factor in the game. This is an interesting thread though.

Very interesting. In craps, how the shooter throws the dice will ultimately determine how it lands. Throw two dice exactly the same way with the same speed and pitch and bounce and spin to two different positions at the back wall, and the dice will bounce differently and return different results-- no one will dispute this. Craps is a random game. But the only action is the shooter throwing the dice.

In video poker a player must stop the RNG once for the deal and a second time for the draw. This is also a random game, much like throwing the dice. No one will dispute this. Video poker is a random game. But the process of reaching a "decision" in the game is based on a player stopping the RNG and the RNG itself.

While someone has called dice an "RNG" keep in mind that the motion of the "Dice RNG" depends only on the shooter and is not independent. The shooter controls this "Dice RNG."

In video poker the RNG is independent of the player. To me, that makes it appear that the video poker player is not independent in the "decision process" of the video poker game.

It appears to me that a video poker player when he presses the deal or draw button to stop the RNG is simply reaching into a barrel of cards that have been shuffled by someone else. The video poker player is choosing a decision made by an independent RNG. While the craps shooter is the RNG that creates the decision.

I vote for craps being the game in which the player (shooter) is the only one who decides the result of the game independently, with all other players in all other games dependent on an action in which they have no involvement.

On the other hand, if there were a casino game in which the player shuffled his own cards, placed his bet, and the dealt his own cards, then this player would also be independent. Having a mechanical RNG takes the "independence" out of the hands of the Video Poker player.

(this happened last night)

I must be the best damn stopper of RNG on a VP machine...



and then a half hour later...

In the first case there are other factors involved as I've indicated. Here's another one to think about. The player does not determine what is considered a valid toss. A shooter could just set the dice down in any configuration he wanted. Of course, that would be an invalid toss. So, the rules of the game are not decided by the shooter, but by the casino. The rules are required to create a "random" toss.

In VP the cards are not completely independent of the player. The exact timing of hitting the button determines the cards. Any slight delay will change the cards.

Any change in the actions of players in either game will likely produce a different result. Hence, in both games the ultimate result is decided by the player. And, in both cases there are outside factors that also influence the result.

As I indicated earlier, I think the confusion comes about due to the visibility factor. With a dice toss one can see the randomness factor coming into play. With VP there is no such visual feedback. Most folks don't even know they are directly responsible for the cards that appear. Many think the machine is completely responsible.

Also, it is obvious that moving the dice around in your hands will likely produce a different result therefore a player feels like they have some control. With VP, any delay has the same effect but there is no feeling of control.