What casino game is decided only by the player?

Such a silly conversation.... it's amazing how often we get to say that when the OP has some time on his hands, which seems to be all the time. But remember he's a millionaire and the smartest guy in the room........ just ask him ;-)

Whoever said it before had it right: the throw is simply one random variable. So is the table, the exact weight and age of the dice used (all dice are not identical down to the microgram, they vary within certain tolerances), the temperature and humidity, the age of the table, the 'bounce', the number of pyramids, the number and size of the chipstacks at the opposing 'target-side' passline, the weight of a casino's chip that the dice can then use as a pinball machine bumper - how far did you want to go here? The lattitude and elevation of the casino, which has an infinitesimal affect on the gravitational pull on the dice? The current barometric pressure? The number of people at the table, especially on the 'target side' of the throw, who may be breathing directly towards the dice, resulting in the throw's trajectory being altered some exceedingly small (but measurable) amount?

One could add the effect of the tides on the dice, air pressure variations based upon a number of factors, sex of the shooter, gravational variances on galaxy orbits, and of course blind dumb luck.

I think your points about randomness are all valid. But the consideration here are the variables which result in the decision of the game. In craps all decisions are based on only one thing -- the position of the dice when they come to rest. How they come to rest depends on one factor which is what the toss or throw was by the shooter. While the dice will bounce and interact with the table and air flows and ground shaking and all other factors, it is only the shooter which sets the dice on its path. In all other games the casino has a second variable which could be a dealer selecting cards or a RNG selecting cards or a ball dropping or a wheel spinning. If you consider air flow and bounces on a table by dice equivalent to a shuffle by a dealer or a shuffle by an RNG or the spin of a wheel and drop of a ball, then yes the shooter in craps does not decide the game by himself. I think of craps as a game decided by the shooter independent of another device or dealer or player and I think other craps players believe the same.

The shooter does not decide the outcome of a craps roll. That is decided by one of the dealers, usually the stick man.

Thinking that the roller is the only deciding factor is a reason many people lose a small fortune while at a casino. The outcome of the roll is based on a lot more than just the action of the shooter throwing the dice. If you go be that then it's just an easy to argue the outcome of slots is based only on the action of the player who presses the spin button.

A more interesting thought experiment is, which games does the player actually determine, solely, whether they win or not *every time*, based on their bets. In other words, if you knew in advance what the results would be, you could always optimize your bet to extract the maximum amount of money from Gary Loveman (or Sheldon or Steve or Bobby). Craps certainly qualifies, as does roulette. If you knew what number were coming up in either game, you could bet that number on a one-roll bet, hop it, etc. Same with roulette, you would simply bet 21 black or 00 or whatever. Not so with Pai Gow, Blackjack, Let-it-ride, Caribbean stud, or (live) poker - you could play a betting decision perfectly and still lose. I suppose you could always win a Baccarat but since it's (mostly) even money, who cares.

Any other games you could guarantee victory every time by the decision on what to bet?

Action of player determine the outcome of that roll (regardless of how the dice land, roll, hop, bounce, etc...)... From the time the dice are in the players hand, the house has no control over the deciding factor of that roll, how the dice lay call the number for that roll...

any other game, the players action is going to determine something they choose, to hit or stay, call or fold, set a pai gow hand pair pair or high card / pair... but ultimately, something in the hands of the casino via a deck of cards, shoe of cards, ball on a wheel, RNG in a slot are going to determine the outcome of that game.

Player has every right to stay on 6 (yes 4 + 2 = 6 that SIX), and control the outcome of his PLAY... but ultimately, the DEALER's hand is going to determine the outcome of the GAME.


You could pull 20 out of a black jack shoe all day long and push or loose every hand... very hard, but it can happen, because the dealer has the last action that is going to decide the outcome of that hand / game...

You could be dealt 4 to the royal every hand and pull an off color deuce, its up the the RNG, which is out of your control... yes some will say its up to timing, but you cant "time" something you have no base of what the timing of the RNG is to go by... (Audio CD's have a frequency of 44.1kHz, thats 44,100 cycles per second... Electricity in America is 120V, that is 60 hz, if a video poker RNG cycled through the cards at 60 hz, that would mean the whole deck would pass through about 1.15 times per second... if you were to even slap the button, in the time you make contact with the button and it registers on the machine, 15 different cards will pass by... so controlling the timing of a video poker RNG... well... yeah... not happening...).... Even if the cards cycle through 6 cards a second, you have no basis on where to start to begin even thinking of "timing" your action...


I think the whole point of this is that the house can not control or change or have any influence on the dice other than the static factors of the table (felt, bumpers, and annoying cocktail waitresses that are asking you if you would like a drink while you are shooting... FUUUUUUUU!)...

I have to say that the experienced cocktail waitresses at Caesars know NOT to ask the shooter if they want a drink. And when a shooter asks the cocktail waitress for a drink, I know its time to take down my bets. Never fails.

"you cant "time" something you have no base of what the timing of the RNG is to go by"

What this implies is that slapinfunk believes you CAN control the dice in craps. Clearly, if you believe this then the situation is different and we are no long talking about a random event. I believe that is the main reason for problems he and money are having. They can't admit the craps shooter really has no control over the result and that infects the rest of their thinking.

"if a video poker RNG cycled through the cards at 60 hz"

Since it doesn't then everything else you state is incorrect. I believe most machines today use a 200 or 400 Mhz processor. VP machines are just computers with a single purpose program. I found this information on the IGT website several years ago. No reason for you to be confused.

The shooter has no control of what the dice will do once they let go. It's that simple. The deciding factor of how the dice will end up are left to several factors that the shooter has no control of. The end result is just as random as many other casino games.