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Question of the Day - 28 January 2020

Q:

Is blackjack the only game with the risk of being backed-off, barred, or back-roomed?  Also, does back-rooming still happen? Any bruising lately?

A:
[Editor's Note: Blackjack advantage-play expert Arnold Snyder wrote this answer.]
 
Players have been backed off, barred, and back-roomed from just about every casino table game and slot machine. Blackjack is the most common game for this to occur because casinos are aware that players can beat 21 via card counting and other methods, plus card counters are easy for casinos to identify by observing their betting decisions.
 
Because there are so many ways of beating blackjack, however, both legally and illegally, blackjack is the game that amateurs are most likely to be backed off or barred from. Many amateurs have been booted from blackjack just for having a winning streak, or being seen talking or socializing with a player believed to be a card counter.
 
But all table games are vulnerable to cheating methods. Casinos watch out for dice "sliders" at the crap tables, "past posters" at roulette, hole-card players on any of the "carnival" card games, like three-card poker, Caribbean stud, etc.
 
Dice sliding, which is throwing one of the dice so that it spins sideways and never hits the backboard, is illegal. Past posting at roulette (or any game), which is changing a bet after the winning number has been determined, is illegal. Some hole card techniques have been ruled legal in Nevada's courts, so they're technically not cheating, but casinos do not tolerate hole card players at any games if they detect, or even suspect them.
 
Video poker, and primarily the progressive jackpot version, is a slot game that pro players have targeted for decades, as these games can be beaten via intelligent play. In most cases, solo players are left alone, as the jackpot payouts don't cost the casino anything since the jackpots represent money lost by prior players. But if a team of pros takes over an entire bank of machines to ensure themselves of collecting the jackpot, many casinos will back them off.
 
Unless cheating is strongly suspected, meaning that a casino's surveillance department believes it has sufficient video evidence to prosecute, players are rarely back-roomed anymore. This tactic that was once a fairly common way to harass and scare card counters has proven too costly to casinos when the victims sue for false imprisonment, etc. Likewise, I haven't heard of any physical attacks on players in many years. Corporations worry more about lawsuits than the mob did.
 
Is blackjack the only game with the risk of being backed-off, barred, or back-roomed?  Also, does back-rooming still happen?
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Comments

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  • Adam Cohen Jan-28-2020
    BJ
    Forget card counting it is harder and harder to play all the games today.

  • Pat Higgins Jan-28-2020
    Pat H
    One can be backed off from Craps if it appears that a player is making some good money and has a "so called "controlled throw."  Saw in done in Louisiana a couple of years ago.
    
    I was backed off one time at BJ at the old Barbary Coast.  I was getting my hat handed to me betting fairly low bets ($5 to $15) and decided to just bet the remaining $45 dollars I had left and I would leave win or lose.  The pit boss pushed my chips back out of the betting area, told the dealer to deal me out, and when I asked why, he said "you are too good for us".  I said to him "how is that possible I am down $55."  His response "you are welcome to  play any other table game in the house but not BJ."
    
    I went to a craps table, luckily caught a good roll and won my money back plus a little profit--don't remember the amount of profit but it wasn't much and I never went back to that dirt joint.

  • steve crouse Jan-28-2020
    Blackjack
    Card counting and trying to make money at BJ is hard work.
    I don't visit Vegas to work.

  • Dave in Seattle. Jan-28-2020
    Backed off @ BJ
    One of our members was backed off and I congratulated him. He didn't like that.

  • O2bnVegas Jan-28-2020
    must be careful
    Not backed off, but a habit was getting me noticed. 
    
    High Card Flush.  Player is dealt 7 cards face down. Pick them up, look to see if there is at least a playable three card flush or better among the seven.
    
    Being new at it, and it being a slower game, I'd tended to pick up my cards, lean back in my chair to study them.  That's fine, except that I was pulling my cards back from the edge of the table, not realizing I was doing that. 
    
    Wow, the reaction is quicker than if you pull out a cell phone.  
    
    One time a pit guy came over and told the dealer I was doing this, and I got a lecture from both that this is strongly verboten!  They said I could be denied a jackpot, since the camera might not be able to see, i.e. verify the hand (like maybe I sneaked a card from my sleeve).  They've been nice about it but serious.  And from what I gathered, surveillance HAD notice me doing this and called the pit.
    
    Oh, well, glad to be warned.  I'd hate to get a giant hand and be denied the payoff.
    
    

  • Kevin Lewis Jan-28-2020
    Barring by association
    At the old Castaways--I was counting, and betting a 2-15 spread. Two guys, one on each side of me, were mildly drunk and betting like nutballs--at any given moment, anything from $10 to $200. They weren't terrible but they didn't know (or care about) basic strategy. However, they were winning most of their big bets. Then one hand, I had $2 out there because the true count was -8. They both bet $200, and they both won. That was it, they got backed off, and from their confused reaction, it was clear they had no idea why. I told them, "It's because you're winning, and that's against the rules here." I got the requisite death glare from the pit slime.

  • That Don Guy Jan-28-2020
    What About App Users?
    Has anybody been backed off/barred for using a phone app - e.g. for VP strategy? Going by a strict reading of the law, a second offense in Nevada is a mandatory one-year prison sentence.

  • Toad Jan-28-2020
    Reason # 394
    Another reason I don't gamble. It's not gambling if they can bar you just because you win. It's losing and maybe with a bit of luck you may even out over time.

  • Jan-28-2020
    Roulette: semi-blacklisted
    I had a weird experience 30 years ago playing roulette at the old Marina on the south Strip. It was a standard 0-00 wheel, with 25-cent chips. I recorded the results for 2 days & then examined them, hoping to find a trend. I did. I found out that in each of my prior sessions on the trip, the "B" column had come up 5 times in a row. So I made a plan: Every time a "B" number occurred, I would bet a red chip ($5) on the column. If it hit 4 more times in a row, it would be a profit of $400. So I went down the next day & sat at the end of the table where column bets are made. Within the hour, I got my hit, & there were 81 red chips (including my original bet) stacked in that little square. I didn't jump up & down for joy like most people would, but rather was unemotional. I cashed out, & then immediately a "suit" came over and asked me for my name & identifying info. I first thought maybe he was going to offer me a comp, but when he didn't, I figured he was going to put me on a blacklist.

  • James Martin Jr Jan-28-2020
    Cheating
    back-rooming, barring, or backed off isn't what worries me. It's the back-dooring that scares me. OUCH !!!!

  • Jerry Patey Jan-29-2020
    vpoker
    you do not have to be barred to be affected. i was playing at Orleans 2-3 years back and was lucky to hit 5 5-1000 jackpots. made mistake of asking for 4 free room. after much host gave me free room. he look at computer and told me exactly what i did   he gave me the room but. i have been to host several times since then not always for a comp. last time i asked about resort fee on free room. however when then run my card they do not look just state ( i cannot help you or there is nothing i can do ) i am not barred but obviously flagged. 

  • rokgpsman Jan-31-2020
    Almost in trouble
    Many years ago I was playing blackjack at the Harrah's in Kansas City. I was having some luck and was ahead, stayed there longer than normal for me because it was going so well and I’d played thru the lunch hour. I was being friendly to the dealers, tipping now & then and visiting with other players. The pit boss lady came over and said why don’t you go get some lunch and she gave me a comp to their buffet. I don’t know if she was being friendly (they often are in those midwest places) or if she was trying to get me off the table but she was nice about it and I was hungry so I went to eat. 
    
    All the buffet tables had a casino playing card stuck on the top of the salt and pepper holder, probably from the casino decks they change out every few hours. I think they did that in the buffet so you could find your table more easily when you came back from getting food, and not sit down at the wrong table.
    --see part 2--

  • rokgpsman Jan-31-2020
    Almost in trouble - part 2
    My table's card was the ace of hearts, when I finished eating I put the card in my shirt pocket for a lucky afternoon in the casino and forgot about it. I went back to the same blackjack table and started playing again. The pit supervisor lady came over to chitchat with me and the other players while the dealer was shuffling the cards. While she was talking I got some gum out of my pocket and pulled out the buffet playing card. The pit boss lady was standing right there and saw the card come out of my pocket. She and the dealer immediately froze and got something that looked like a "what the hell" expression on their faces. 
    
    I handed it to her and said it was from the buffet she had sent me to, that every table has one and I thought it would bring me good luck. She examined the card carefully, the back of the card didn’t match the deck in use at our table (luckily) so she was sorta relieved but she didn’t hand it back to me. 
    --see part 3--

  • rokgpsman Jan-31-2020
    Almost in trouble - part 3
    She chuckled and said I shouldn’t bring my own cards to the blackjack table, the casino owners frowned on doing that. We all had a good laugh about it, but she seemed to watch our table more closely after that. I guess it was a lucky card, she didn’t make me empty out all my pockets. I played a while longer, didn't want to leave too soon and give a guilty or wrong impression, then I colored up and waved goodbye. She called me over and said to come back soon, but please leave my cards and dice at home.

  • rokgpsman Jan-31-2020
    Almost in trouble - the end
    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened to me in Las Vegas, especially at one of the "sweat" casinos like the old Barbary Coast and others. I might have been treated a lot differently. Or maybe my innocent face would have convinced them it was just a tourist mistake. Not sure.