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Question of the Day - 07 July 2019

Q:

Regarding the slow but steady decline in $2-$4 hold 'em. My usual venue the Flamingo recently removed the game. The tourists and locals, even the so-called regulars whom I’ve been playing with for ten years, have now dispersed to the Orleans, Red Rock, and Golden Nugget. I wrote the Flamingo bosses and we’re not happy with their responses; the rake is bigger, so the heck with the small time 2-4 players. They now only have 3-6 limit or 1-2 no limit. I tried to explain to them how many players they lost and their money at the shops and restaurants. Can you address this? 

 

A:

[Editor's Note: Blair Rodman, co-author of Kill Phil and long-time Las Vegas poker aficionado, tackles this one.]

The question references $2-$4 limit hold'em, in which the maximum bet or raise on the last two rounds is $4, as opposed to no-limit, where all bets are only limited by the amount of money a player has on the table.

Poker in Las Vegas has had its up and downs. Prior to the poker explosion of 2003  (when the game went crazy due to the rise of Internet poker, televised poker featuring hole cams, and Chris Moneymaker's unlikely win at the WSOP Main Event in 2003), poker was declining significantly in Las Vegas and many rooms were being downsized or closed.

As a result of the poker explosion, many new poker rooms opened or existing rooms expanded in Las Vegas. Also, no-limit hold 'em was the game supporting the frenzy and limit games suffered. The arc was straight up until poker's Black Friday of 2011, when American players were denied access to the popular sites, such as PokerStars and Full Tilt, which offered world-wide player pools and great action, but were operating outside the law.

The result of Black Friday was that poker fell out of the public consciousness. TV poker shows were cancelled, poker magazines suffered due to the lack of advertising from the illegal sites, and many people who had come into poker by playing online gave up the game.

In Las Vegas, poker rooms, which were a less profitable use of casino footage than slot machines, struggled to justify their existence. Many downsized or closed altogether. The bean counters cast a critical eye on the bottom line of their poker rooms and I'm sure that's what happened to your 2-4 game. Not spreading it was a better financial decision for them than continuing to offer it. Casinos exist to make profits, not to accept less profits to placate customers, not matter how loyal.

In regards to the last parts of your question, I've argued for years about the benefits of having a poker room, primarily for the reasons you stated. However, corporate decisions often don't make sense to consumers. Different departments are autonomous and managers are concerned with their immediate profits, not the benefit to the business as a whole. Benny Binion understood the value of getting poker players in the door, but his family-owned operation was a far cry from modern corporate casinos.

Sadly, unless you can demonstrate to the card-room manager that having the 2-4 on a permanent basis will increase his own bottom line, as opposed to those of the different hotel operations, you're probably looking at patronizing other rooms for your game.

That said, if you show up at the room with a full table's worth of players ready to play and there are open tables and dealers to work it, most rooms will spread whatever you want. I've seen this happen many times.

 

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Comments

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  • Mikescud Jul-07-2019
    Limits going up
    Not a surprise. On a recent trip to the strip, I also noticed "$15 is the new $10" when it comes to table minimums. Even at off-peak hours, all of the old $10 craps and BJ at the Flamingo, Cromwell, etc, are now $15. Can't help but wonder if this is curiously-timed with the El Dorado announcement. At one point - on a Monday afternoon - after being a $15 craps table (the only one open) at Cromwell for a while, they suddenly made it a $25 table. Unreal. Never seen that there before (on an off-time and being the only table open). Caesars has gotten stingy and they don't care. Vote with your feet. Find your cheaper poker tables elsewhere, because all the stomping and screaming doesn't seem likely to make a difference.

  • Dave Jul-07-2019
    $1/$3 no limit
    Similarly, $1/$3 is the new norm for no limit. 
    
    After the flop, when bets are typically more than the minimum, changing that minimum by one measly buck has no real effect. So why do it?
    
    Because of the pre-flop action and, specifically, the rake. 
    
    With 1/3, only to limpers are needed to get a $10 pot and start pulling a rake. At 1/2, FOUR limpers are needed to get to $10. 
    
    In other words, it’s all about corporate greed. 

  • Scott Jul-07-2019
    Tournaments about as bad
    Anymore I feel like "Prey" when I go to Vegas and may quit after 12 years.  Another trick they use in poker is the pricing of tournaments.  Usually there are all these "optional" add-ons.  For instance you get 2x the chips if you choose to give a 20% tip  for the dealers.  So your "options" are to start with 1/2 as many chips or pay 30%+ in rake.  So I no longer play tournaments because I have no chance no matter how weak the competition.

  • gaattc2001 Jul-07-2019
    We play mostly tournaments...
    and there are still a few good poker rooms in Las Vegas, but I won't mention any names. If I go out before my significant other, I'll usually play video poker or Blackjack and get enough points to get some comps.
    But it's all balanced on a knife-edge. Right now, most Las Vegas tournaments return about 75% of the buy-in, not counting any optional gratuities and add-ons as Scott mentions. If it goes any higher than that, they will start pushing people over the edge. Here in Phoenix, we have at least one local casino poker room as good as any in Vegas--and maybe another opening next year. Why drive four hours, and pay a resort fee, for the same game you can get right across town? Then there's Laughlin, and the Los Angeles card rooms.
    Feel free to pass this on to Mr. Murren. 

  • Llew Jul-07-2019
    Rake 
    On a trip to LA many years ago, I decided to check out the poker action at the Commerce poker room.  I believe it was (and maybe still is) the largest poker room in LA. 
    Being a low-limit player at the time, I sat down at a 4/8 stud8 table.  Stud is an 8 player game. 
    First hand, we all anted $.50.  The dealer immediately dropped the $4 pot into the rack!!  Before a single card had been dealt!!  At the end of that hand, I picked up my chips, cashed out and left.  Haven't been back since.  

  • Llew Jul-07-2019
    Vig 
    I'm old enough to remember when the vig (the extra charge beyond the prize pool in a tournament ) was reasonable.  Not only have vigs increased significantly, now there is usually an *additional* charge for "dealer tokes".  Shouldn't the vig cover that?  
    Also, this additional money is distributed not only to dealers, but to floorpeople, cashiers, etc.  So the dealers actually get less of this "toke" money.  Because other poker personnel get some of this money, the casinos can justify (in their minds) paying them less.  More corporate greed. 
    

  • Scott Jul-07-2019
    Tournaments
    Yeah, and I was lucky enough to win one a while back and they strongly told those of us who cashed "Don't forget to take care of you dealer."  Didn't we do that with the 15% they took from everyone for the dealers in the beginning?

  • Kevin Lewis Jul-07-2019
    Shortsighted decision
    The people who run casinos, with pitifully few exceptions, are very, very stupid. The little poker room at the Flaming O probably was never very profitable in and of itself, but it served as a loss leader. People would sit down and play, knowing they would only lose maybe $20 or $40, and have a good time in the process. And when they were done? THEY WERE STILL INSIDE THE FLAMINGO. So if they wanted to have dinner, see a show, play craps, etc. etc., it was likely that the Flamingo was where they would do that. Obvious, right? But today's casino suits don't understand the concept of a loss leader. They think they need to monetize every square foot of the casino to the absolute maximum. I'm sure there are plans on the books to charge resort fees for using the bathrooms. 

  • Roy Furukawa Jul-07-2019
    Modern Day Moronic Management
    It's truth you speak when corporate managers only care about their own immediate need in their own departments, but mostly because their managers up to the CEO don't get that treating a customer right in one area (poker room) gets more money in their door in other areas (other gaming and food) and no one is given an incentive to do so. A happy customer is a good customer. It's why everyone nods in approval during the end spiel by Robert DeNiro in the movie Casino about how Las Vegas hospitality has changed for the worst since corporations took over from the mob.