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Question of the Day - 03 February 2022

Q:

It’s tax time. As exact as computers are supposed to be, why are win loss statements considered inaccurate?

A:

For this answer, we're happy to reprint the reason from Tax Help for Gamblers 4th Edition (updated in early 2019), by Jean Scott and her co-authors.

"Win/loss statements from casinos at the end of the year are valuable as supporting evidence of play, but many tax-court decisions have upheld the IRS position that they don’t substitute for a gambling log.

"For one thing, in the case of machine play, they cover only the time you play with your players club card inserted. Many people don’t ever use a card or use it sporadically.

"In the case of table play, you need to give your name to the pit boss and ask to be rated (something many players don’t do) to be sure that the casino keeps any records of your wins and losses; in addition, these are only human estimates (and will remain so until table games are computerized, which has been done in a few places and will become more common within a few years).

"Furthermore, casino win/loss statements vary greatly in accuracy and completeness, because there’s no standard form for the casino to use. Some forms for machine players are quite detailed if the casino has a good computer-tracking system, giving the exact time and win/loss figure for each day of the year you played a machine with your players card at their casino. Others merely give a total yearly win/loss figure and sometimes this is only an estimate based on theoretical machine hold, rather than your actual wins or losses. Still others may give you your lifetime total, rather than just one for the past year.

"Many statements are notoriously inaccurate and incomplete, often not counting hand-pays and/or W-2G jackpots, but not making that fact known. A few we [Jean and Brad] get match our own records fairly closely; most seem to have little relationship to our own extremely detailed records."

So it is, as usual, a GIGO matter: garbage in garbage out. When questionable data is fed into a computer, the information that emerges will also be questionable. And that's not good enough for the IRS. 

 

No part of this answer may be reproduced or utilized in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, without the written permission of the publisher.

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Comments

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  • Kevin Lewis Feb-03-2022
    Just one aspect of it...
    The IRS gives gamblers, um, as the British would say, "a good rogering." You won? Great, give us our cut. You lost? Don't come crying to us, and don't you dare subtract those losses from your other income. You won $20,000 in 2020? Spike and Vito, the Tax Boys, will pay you a visit. You then lost $20,000 in 2021? So effin' what?
    
    So, no surprise that they're predisposed to reject whatever evidence you may proffer that that $4,000 royal you hit actually put you ahead $23 for the year. Pay up, and stop squirming.

  • Kevin Rough Feb-03-2022
    They're not accurate at all
    In January I visited a casino where you can see your running total for win/loss for the current year.  It was my first visit of 2022 and I ended up with a $120 loss.  The win/loss statement says I lost $50.

  • Jackie Feb-03-2022
    Maybe, just maybe.
    Technically our Federal Reserve Notes have no backing.  In other words if you were to turn them in for backing you would be issued an IOU for that amount in Federal Reserve Notes making that money basically a very comfortable toilet paper like Charmin.
    
    So when the IRS wants their cut, convert your dollars into that IOU and send the IOU in to pay.
    I know it doesn't do anything about not paying but it is a nice slap in the face when the IRS has to get that money from the Federal Reserve.

  • [email protected] Feb-03-2022
    Following the Law
    It should be noted that the IRS just follows the tax laws as written.  It's not their decision not to allow gambling losses to offset anything except gambling winnings, that's the way the tax code was written by Congress and signed into law by various Presidents.
    
    Also, Federal Reserve Notes are backed by the full faith and credit of the United States, which isn't exactly nothing!  :-) There's a reason the US dollar is the world's reserve currency.

  • Reno Faoro Feb-03-2022
    statements
    who wins ?  do NOT understand that word !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  where there is JOY , THERE IS NO LOSS  !!!!  

  • Bob Dancer Feb-03-2022
    Two other factors
    1.     First, some gamblers have play at, say, 10 casinos but only want to submit the win/loss statements from 8 of them --- to support whatever they want the IRS to believe the "truth" is.
    
    2.   While card pulling doesn't work as well as it used to, on games such as Ultimate X, it works really well. Just wait until you're dealt a full house and get 12x multipliers all around, and then for one hand only, remove your card. If you do this every time you have a dealt full house (once every 694 hands), this will GREATLY overstate your losses on this game.

  • Roy Furukawa Feb-03-2022
    Aggregate Win/loss
    I know Jean’s book is a good one to have for reference. A secondary question would be if you can aggregate your wins/losses, I.e., take a starting bankroll and ending bankroll to determine win/loss per day. I believe that the book stated that the IRS allows this now.  

  • Jackie Feb-03-2022
    @Ischulz
    Federal Reserve notes are about to go bankrupt by the full faithlessness of a country that is heavily in debt it never had any intention to repay.
    
    Because of that, the US credit rating has dropped causing interest rates on borrowed money to increase.
    
    Because of that China has been campaigning to have it's dollar become the world reserve and succeeding in many countries.
    
    Contact your State representatives in Congress and ask them why they refuse to raise funds to pay off the National debt. That's $20Trillion in loans and $10Trillion in contractual debt.
    
    Either Biden or our 2024 President will declare bankruptcy.
    
    But what gets me is the US has $130Trillion in assets but refuses to sell anything and has even made laws forbidding the sale of those assets.
    
    Choose wisely the next people you vote for or look up what has happened to every country that declared bankruptcy.  I wouldn't want to live like that, would you?

  • O2bnVegas Feb-03-2022
    audit
    I was audited, only for the win/loss portion of my return.  Scared the hell out of me when I got 'the letter.' They sent a brochure telling how to submit evidence, which includes the casino-generated win/loss statement (lottery tickets, horserace tickets, a long list of "evidence" one could submit).  The win/loss statements were all I had; they were accepted and nothing further.  My story only.  Certainly could be different for different circumstances.
    
    Candy    

  • JCCoryell Feb-03-2022
    standard deduction
    With the tax law changes many people now take the standard deduction.  The cap on SALT, loss of union dues, work expenses and cap on mortgage interest has left many to just claim the standard deduction.  That being the case, those same people can no longer deduct gambling losses from gambling winnings.  I was down $2000 on a $2 DB VP game when I hit $1600 on 4 Aces.  It triggered a hand pay in which I liable for winnings tax despite actually losing $400 that day.  Going back quarters machines